Filed under: vegetable organic
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Is there an easy way to predict the viscosity of a mixture of > hydrocarbons, > > perhaps according to their individual viscosities? > Inert small molecules might mole weight-average properties near > enough. Long molecules can bundle or extend (look up "theta solvent") > and tangle. Functionalized stuff can interact (fumed silica in > hydrocarbon, organic gelants in near anything, amines plus alcohols > and hydrogen bonding). Paraffins go weird near pour points by network > formation. Consider co-solvent properties among paraffins, > microcrystalline waxes, naphthenes, aromatics… > Al, don’t go bezerk, most of the time my molecules are just hanging out. I’m > limiting my domain to straight hydrocarbons (HC’s) and standard mixes > thereof (gasoline, diesel fuel). > I’d like to bundle, extend, or even tangle with you, but I’d settle for a > simple formula for my viscosity. > Thanks > Roland > — > Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones > Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay > http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge > mobile: +27 72 386 8045
Well you could always decide to try to calculate the london and van der waals forces!
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> Is there an easy way to predict the viscosity of a mixture of hydrocarbons, > perhaps according to their individual viscosities?
UNIFAC-VISCO; see Chevalier, J.L., Gaston-Bonhomme, Y., Petrino, P., Estimation method for the kinematic viscosity of a liquid-phase mixture, Chemical Engineering Science, Vol. 43, No.6, 1988, p.1303-1309. Kind regards, Koen
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Is there an easy way to predict the viscosity of a mixture of hydrocarbons, perhaps according to their individual viscosities? The domain of interest is hydrocarbon fuels (i.e. pure hydrocarbons, but also commercial gasoline, diesel, kerosine, etc.), and vegetable oils such as sunflower, rape-seed. I’d also like to extend this to oxygenated hydrocarbons such as methanol and ethanol. Is there a more general way to predict viscosities of (multi) fluid solutions, according to their individual properties? Are viscosities linearly additive (i.e. a 50-50 solution of low-viscosity and high-viscosity fluid would have a viscosity exactly mid-way between the two). Do viscosities of solutions tend towards the least or the most viscous? Thanks for any help Roland — Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge mobile: +27 72 386 8045
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Is there an easy way to predict the viscosity of a mixture of hydrocarbons, > perhaps according to their individual viscosities? > The domain of interest is hydrocarbon fuels (i.e. pure hydrocarbons, but > also commercial gasoline, diesel, kerosine, etc.), and vegetable oils such > as sunflower, rape-seed. I’d also like to extend this to oxygenated > hydrocarbons such as methanol and ethanol. > Is there a more general way to predict viscosities of (multi) fluid > solutions, according to their individual properties? > Are viscosities linearly additive (i.e. a 50-50 solution of low-viscosity > and high-viscosity fluid would have a viscosity exactly mid-way between the > two). Do viscosities of solutions tend towards the least or the most > viscous? > Thanks for any help > Roland
Inert small molecules might mole weight-average properties near enough. Long molecules can bundle or extend (look up "theta solvent") and tangle. Functionalized stuff can interact (fumed silica in hydrocarbon, organic gelants in near anything, amines plus alcohols and hydrogen bonding). Paraffins go weird near pour points by network formation. Consider co-solvent properties among paraffins, microcrystalline waxes, naphthenes, aromatics… It depends. — Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
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>Is there an easy way to predict the viscosity of a mixture of hydrocarbons, >perhaps according to their individual viscosities? > Check out API Procedure 11A4.3. It is a method to blend viscosities of > two hydrocarbon components. The method has been extended to 30 > components by Luinstra – see Hydrocarbon Processing, 1983.
What and where is API Procedure 11A4.3? Roland — Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge mobile: +27 72 386 8045
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> Is there an easy way to predict the viscosity of a mixture of hydrocarbons, > perhaps according to their individual viscosities? > Inert small molecules might mole weight-average properties near > enough. Long molecules can bundle or extend (look up "theta solvent") > and tangle. Functionalized stuff can interact (fumed silica in > hydrocarbon, organic gelants in near anything, amines plus alcohols > and hydrogen bonding). Paraffins go weird near pour points by network > formation. Consider co-solvent properties among paraffins, > microcrystalline waxes, naphthenes, aromatics…
Al, don’t go bezerk, most of the time my molecules are just hanging out. I’m limiting my domain to straight hydrocarbons (HC’s) and standard mixes thereof (gasoline, diesel fuel). I’d like to bundle, extend, or even tangle with you, but I’d settle for a simple formula for my viscosity. Thanks Roland — Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge mobile: +27 72 386 8045
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is there an easy way to predict the viscosity of a mixture of hydrocarbons, > perhaps according to their individual viscosities? > The domain of interest is hydrocarbon fuels (i.e. pure hydrocarbons, but > also commercial gasoline, diesel, kerosine, etc.), and vegetable oils such > as sunflower, rape-seed. I’d also like to extend this to oxygenated > hydrocarbons such as methanol and ethanol. > Is there a more general way to predict viscosities of (multi) fluid > solutions, according to their individual properties? > Are viscosities linearly additive (i.e. a 50-50 solution of low-viscosity > and high-viscosity fluid would have a viscosity exactly mid-way between the > two). Do viscosities of solutions tend towards the least or the most > viscous? > Thanks for any help > Roland > Inert small molecules might mole weight-average properties near > enough. Long molecules can bundle or extend (look up "theta solvent") > and tangle. Functionalized stuff can interact (fumed silica in > hydrocarbon, organic gelants in near anything, amines plus alcohols > and hydrogen bonding). Paraffins go weird near pour points by network > formation. Consider co-solvent properties among paraffins, > microcrystalline waxes, naphthenes, aromatics… > It depends.
People hate it when reality is complicated. Oh well… — John Popelish
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Question:
I got a chuckle out of that…not bad – because I am so depressed!!! Jo Three weeks, four days, 19 hours, 7 minutes and 31 seconds. 593 cigarettes not smoked, saving $94.93. Life saved: 2 days, 1 hour, 25 minutes.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> For crying out loud! A person just can’t do a freaking thing right > these days. If they are not bitching about people smoking, now > they’re gonna bitch about people being fat. If they do enough > studies, they will be able to prove that just freaking getting born is > a cancer-causing event. > These medical people will not be satisfied until every single person > has given up every single thing that makes life fun. How long before > watching videotapes causes cancer? Seems like I remember when CRT’s > caused freaking cancer and once I read that the damn water caused > cancer. > Salt is bad for you. > Liquor is bad for you. > Driving a car is bad for you. > Eating sugar is bad for you. > Smoking is bad for you. > Eating fried foods is bad for you. > Eating red meat is bad for you. > SOLUTION: Eat vegetables, home grown with no chemicals if possible > (organic) for which you will pay three times as much. Eat all chicken > cooked with no fat (or use scant olive oil). Eat no fried foods. Eat > no sugar. Use no caffeine. Use no aspartamine. In other words, > freaking drink water but first use a special test to determine if > there are any unwanted cancer causing agents in it. Maybe boiling it > first would be a good idea. Don’t drink. Don’t drive. Don’t smoke. > Don’t have fun. Don’t enjoy life. Any one of those don’t might just > KILL YOU. > But if those don’t don’t kill you, surely boredom will.
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This just so grosses me out. I have only snipped a few paragraphs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dr. JoAnn Manson of Harvard-affiliated Brigham and Women’s Hospital, > who is not part of the Weigh In program, said, "Obesity will soon > surpass smoking as the leading cause of preventable deaths, and many > of those deaths will be from cancer." > One major motivator will be the link between weight and breast cancer. > Being overweight carries a higher risk of heart attack than breast > cancer, but "breast cancer is the No. 1 feared disease for women," she > said. > "I think the anxiety about cancer could be a powerful motivator for > weight loss and exercise, as it has been for smoking cessation," > Manson said. > The society’s effort is being funded by the Weight Watchers diet > program, which will promote the cancer group’s program at its centers. > Other business sponsors may be added for future Weigh Ins.
So Weight Watchers is funding this. 1. Would the message go out so broadly if it were not being funded by weight watchers? 2. Why are they trying to promote anxiety about cancer? Are they not aware that some people play ostrich if they feel at risk? 3. Should breast cancer be the No. 1 feared disease for women? It isn’t the leading cause of death. 4. Is obesity surpassing smoking as the leading cause of preventable deaths because obesity-related cancers are increasing? 5. Is obesity surpassing smoking as the leading cause of preventable deaths because fewer people are dying of smoking? 6. Why is there not a single quantifiable datum in this whole fucking press release? I really hate fear-mongering. …pat. OF — Pat and Ash http://www3.sympatico.ca/patash/
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"rosie readandpost" wrote … > GOOD LORD! > i believe that i would have used that press release as an excuse to continue > smoking!
me too! I make no apology for quoting (again) this from the NHS stop smoking website … "It is estimated you would need to gain 75 lbs (that’s over 5 stone) to equal the risk of carrying on smoking. " http://www.givingupsmoking.co.uk/why/nomore.htm#16 yes I am overweight and yes I want to lose weight eventually. I am planning to do this by using the increased energy from quitting to do more excercise. I am told (tho I have no reference) that smokers are, on average, heavier than their peers – probably due to the fact that smoking robs you of your energy, leaves you too lethargic and out of condition even to take the stairs, walk any distance, etc.
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GOOD LORD! i believe that i would have used that press release as an excuse to continue smoking! — read and post daily, it works! rosie LET THE INSPECTIONS WORK! (petition) http://www.moveon.org/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Health – AP > American Cancer Society Takes on Fat > Mon Feb 17, 8:49 AM ET > By IRA DREYFUSS, Associated Press Writer > WASHINGTON – The American Cancer Society (news – web sites), suggesting > that the cancer risk in flab is as bad as the risk in tobacco, is about > to start a drive to encourage people to lose weight and get more active. > The Great American Weigh In, to take place March 5, is modeled after the > Great American Smokeout, now 30 years old, the society’s annual effort > to encourage people to give up tobacco. > "One third of (cancer) deaths are related to diet and inactivity," said > Colleen Doyle, the group’s director of nutrition and physical activity. > About 186,000 lives a year could be saved if people changed those living > habits, she said. > Dr. JoAnn Manson of Harvard-affiliated Brigham and Women’s Hospital, who > is not part of the Weigh In program, said, "Obesity will soon surpass > smoking as the leading cause of preventable deaths, and many of those > deaths will be from cancer." > The society wants people to do more than step on the scale. It calls on > them to measure their body mass index (BMI)
Question:
> >> I know several people who are alergic to fish except for tuna. >> Apartntly it has something to do with tuna being warm blooded. >It is also cold-blooded like all fish. Not that that matters a damn >in working out if it’s likely to be allergenic. > The notion of tuna being warm-blooded looked strange to me, since the only > warm-blooded animals are birds and mammals. Cold-blooded vs. warm-blooded > would have a bearing on allergenicity in that birds and mammals are very > different from fish.
It is interesting that people on this list can be so closed minded. What do you think when people say "you need wheat to live" or "you can’t be allergic to wheat." Of course we were all taught that one of the basic differences between fish and mamals was being warm or cold blooded, but I would think that any one on this list would have realized by now that there are always exceptions to the rules that you learn in school. Let me clarify what I know about the warm blooded fish- alergy relationship. First Tuna and a few other fish are warmblooded or semi-warmblooded depending on who you talk to. Put "tuna warm blooded" in google and you will find it repeated over and over. Second I don’t know what that would have to do with alergy other than it indicates that tuna are very different from other fish. One of the people I know who is alergic to fish except for tuna gave warm bloodedness as the explanation. I haven’t been able to get in touch with him to get the specifics for all of you. Here are some tuna links http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/McFarlane_Warm_Blooded_F… http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/trcc.asp Z
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Oh, yes, you’re right, I should have qualified my statement, *canned tuna in brine* has a very low fat content.
>> I know several people who are alergic to fish except for tuna. >> Apartntly it has something to do with tuna being warm blooded. > I have problems with most fish except tuna. Tuna has a very > low fat content, that may have something to do with it. > Tuna has a rather *high* fat content: according to McCance & Widdowson, > 22% by weight against 4.5% for trout and 8.2% for salmon; most of the > species they class as "fatty fish" have only half the fat content of > tuna.
<Snip>
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>> I know several people who are alergic to fish except for tuna. > Apartntly it has something to do with tuna being warm blooded. > I have problems with most fish except tuna. Tuna has a very > low fat content, that may have something to do with it.
: Tuna has a rather *high* fat content: according to McCance & Widdowson, : 22% by weight against 4.5% for trout and 8.2% for salmon; most of the : species they class as "fatty fish" have only half the fat content of : tuna. : It is also cold-blooded like all fish. Not that that matters a damn : in working out if it’s likely to be allergenic. : However. Taxonomically it’s fairly remote from most commonly eaten : fish species, and as a huge, open-ocean fish it will have a very : different diet from something like a herring. Both of these imply : a different chemical composition and hence a different allergenicity : profile. : There is a catchphrase among taxonomists: "there is no such thing as : a fish". The range of evolutionary variation among the organisms we : class as fish is greater than the divergence between some fish and us. : Any evolutionary category that includes both tuna and dogfish must : also include frogs, cobras, cows and people. : High tuna intake is not a good idea, they concentrate mercury. No more : than once a week if you value your brain. : Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 The notion of tuna being warm-blooded looked strange to me, since the only warm-blooded animals are birds and mammals. Cold-blooded vs. warm-blooded would have a bearing on allergenicity in that birds and mammals are very different from fish. Now with aquaculture, maybe there might be a difference in allergenicity between farmed fish and wild (non-farmed) fish, perhaps also between freshwater fish and saltwater fish? No way tuna can have 22% fat content in itself. That 22% must have been for tuna packed in oil. If eating tuna more than once a week is hazardous to the brain because of mercury, what about other ocean fish such as Boston mackerel (Scomber scombrus), and what about freshwater fish?
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>> I know several people who are alergic to fish except for tuna. > Apartntly it has something to do with tuna being warm blooded. > I have problems with most fish except tuna. Tuna has a very > low fat content, that may have something to do with it.
Tuna has a rather *high* fat content: according to McCance & Widdowson, 22% by weight against 4.5% for trout and 8.2% for salmon; most of the species they class as "fatty fish" have only half the fat content of tuna. It is also cold-blooded like all fish. Not that that matters a damn in working out if it’s likely to be allergenic. However. Taxonomically it’s fairly remote from most commonly eaten fish species, and as a huge, open-ocean fish it will have a very different diet from something like a herring. Both of these imply a different chemical composition and hence a different allergenicity profile. There is a catchphrase among taxonomists: "there is no such thing as a fish". The range of evolutionary variation among the organisms we class as fish is greater than the divergence between some fish and us. Any evolutionary category that includes both tuna and dogfish must also include frogs, cobras, cows and people. High tuna intake is not a good idea, they concentrate mercury. No more than once a week if you value your brain. Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
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> Meat and fish on the list included deer, duck, game hen, goose, lamb, pheasant, > quail, rabbit, turkey, and water-packed tuna. That last one was a surprise > considering that allergies to fish can be severe.
I know several people who are alergic to fish except for tuna. Apartntly it has something to do with tuna being warm blooded. Z
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> I know several people who are alergic to fish except for tuna. > Apartntly it has something to do with tuna being warm blooded.
I have problems with most fish except tuna. Tuna has a very low fat content, that may have something to do with it. Kind Regards, Mark.
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> Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > people as well as highly nutritious? > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > seem to think they are hard to digest.
My first thought for low-risk high-nutrition vegetables is brassicas. Brassica genus includes kale, collards, broccoli, kohlrabi, cabbage, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, mustard, turnip (roots and leaves), rutabaga. I believe carrots, beets (roots and leaves), sweetpotatoes, real yams (Dioscorea genus), and malanga or taro are also low risk. A book, "Before You Call the Doctor", has a suggested elimination diet including a fair range of foods considered low-risk. There is a wide variety of fruits and vegetables included, but citrus fruits and Solanaceae are conspicuous by their absence. Solanaceae family includes tomatoes, peppers (Capsicum genus), eggplant and potatoes among the edible members, also tomatillo (Physalis genus), tamarillo, and some non-edible members such as tobacco, belladonna and jimson weed. Cereal grains, were not on the list, not even brown rice, but buckwheat, which is in a different family, was on the list. There were no beans of any kind on the list, no soybeans, no lentils, no peas, no string beans. Nuts and seeds on the list included almonds, Brazil nuts, butternuts, cashews, chestnuts, filberts and hazelnuts, hickory nuts, macadamia nuts, pistachios, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds and tahini, sunflower seeds, and water chestnuts. Peanuts and walnuts were not included. Water chestnuts are actually a corm or tuber, not a nut. Meat and fish on the list included deer, duck, game hen, goose, lamb, pheasant, quail, rabbit, turkey, and water-packed tuna. That last one was a surprise considering that allergies to fish can be severe. Chicken, beef and pork were not included. I suppose "game hen" refers to Cornish hen, which is not really game, but domestically raised. Milk and dairy products, and eggs, are not included. Authors of this book were Anne Simons, M.D., Bobbie Hasselbring and Michael Castleman, and selection of low-risk foods was theirs. No doubt there will be disagreement from both the medical community and food-allergy sufferers on some of the included foods.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > what fruits do people have luck with? I’m also a bit hypo glycemic and try > and eat snacks at 10 and 2 in adition to the 3 normal meals…but bananas > were doing me bad as well… > Hi Sarah – I have the same problem with bananas. I get horrific gas unless > I wait until they’re really spotted; then it isn’t quite as bad – I LOVE > bananas 
> Hugs, Linda > If your anything like me, avoid the bananas. I end up in LOTS of pain if I > eat the slightest bit of banana. > > That depends on what your allergies are! Some ppl react to salicylates > > which are in nearly all fruits & veg, some react to fruit & veg with > > particular colouring, some react to only veg in particular plant > > families…you need a book with these references to help you through. > > Anyway you’re less likely to have a reaction if cook things as it breaks > > down a > > lot of the protein.. but it won’t work with salicylate problems or food > > colour reactions. > > Some reactions can be quite idiosyncratic.. I can’t eat any fruit except > > bananas, apples, pears and mangos. Can’t work that one under any > heading > at > > all. I can eat all veggies except sweetcorn, but ‘can’ eat corn > products. > > All sorts of other odd things. I worked this out from having a few good > > days, writing down everything I’d eaten for those days, and building on > to > > it from there. And had to cut out a lot of chemicals (soaps etc) I was > > using for a while… turned out some of those were a problem too. > > > Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > > > people as well as highly nutritious? > > > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > > > seem to think they are hard to digest. > > > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > > > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > > > my own) > > > Thanks! > > > Patrick > >hi
i can eat bananas and in fact if i can eat little else..i can eat them..that and applesauce..carrots are a problem for me if i am in a flare..as are most raw veggies..lettuce is one of the worst..but i can eat cabbage <g> berries can be tough..but not strawberries..just raspberries, blueberries are terrible..blackberries too..and i love them oranges have always been a problem but more that my skin gets a funny rash from them sometimes..but i can drink orange juice ..?? annie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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Good point. I think you still need to be careful though. While "Organic" foods can be healthier because they are not grow with the additives (pesticides, fertilizers) normal foods have they can still have these contaminants. One way is by wind carried sprays from nearby, non-"organic" fields. Another is from the residual chemicals left in the fields from previous non-"organic" crops. If you suspect a chemical sensitivity, "organic" is the way to go. P.S. I put the quotes around organic to indicate the sense of being grow without chemical fertilizers and pesticides. >Have you ever tried Organic Bananas? I had a guy who swore he was allergic >to Bananas…..But in the end it was the chemicals that were sprayed on the >bananas that caused him his reactions….Not having all those toxic >chemicals make a big difference. >Ken.W 7 Years Med Free > If your anything like me, avoid the bananas. I end up in LOTS of pain if I > eat the slightest bit of banana.
– Luke The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese
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Have you ever tried Organic Bananas? I had a guy who swore he was allergic to Bananas…..But in the end it was the chemicals that were sprayed on the bananas that caused him his reactions….Not having all those toxic chemicals make a big difference. Ken.W 7 Years Med Free
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If your anything like me, avoid the bananas. I end up in LOTS of pain if I > eat the slightest bit of banana. > That depends on what your allergies are! Some ppl react to salicylates > which are in nearly all fruits & veg, some react to fruit & veg with > particular colouring, some react to only veg in particular plant > families…you need a book with these references to help you through. > Anyway you’re less likely to have a reaction if cook things as it breaks > down a > lot of the protein.. but it won’t work with salicylate problems or food > colour reactions. > Some reactions can be quite idiosyncratic.. I can’t eat any fruit except > bananas, apples, pears and mangos. Can’t work that one under any heading > at > all. I can eat all veggies except sweetcorn, but ‘can’ eat corn > products. > All sorts of other odd things. I worked this out from having a few good > days, writing down everything I’d eaten for those days, and building on to > it from there. And had to cut out a lot of chemicals (soaps etc) I was > using for a while… turned out some of those were a problem too. > > Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > > people as well as highly nutritious? > > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > > seem to think they are hard to digest. > > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > > my own) > > Thanks! > > Patrick
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I’ve been eating clementines lately with no ill effects. (they’re like tiny tangerines) Hugs, Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > what fruits do people have luck with? I’m also a bit hypo glycemic and try > and eat snacks at 10 and 2 in adition to the 3 normal meals…but bananas > were doing me bad as well… > Hi Sarah – I have the same problem with bananas. I get horrific gas unless > I wait until they’re really spotted; then it isn’t quite as bad – I LOVE > bananas > Hugs, Linda > If your anything like me, avoid the bananas. I end up in LOTS of pain if I > eat the slightest bit of banana. > > That depends on what your allergies are! Some ppl react to salicylates > > which are in nearly all fruits & veg, some react to fruit & veg with > > particular colouring, some react to only veg in particular plant > > families…you need a book with these references to help you through. > > Anyway you’re less likely to have a reaction if cook things as it breaks > > down a > > lot of the protein.. but it won’t work with salicylate problems or food > > colour reactions. > > Some reactions can be quite idiosyncratic.. I can’t eat any fruit except > > bananas, apples, pears and mangos. Can’t work that one under any > heading > at > > all. I can eat all veggies except sweetcorn, but ‘can’ eat corn > products. > > All sorts of other odd things. I worked this out from having a few good > > days, writing down everything I’d eaten for those days, and building on > to > > it from there. And had to cut out a lot of chemicals (soaps etc) I was > > using for a while… turned out some of those were a problem too. > > > Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > > > people as well as highly nutritious? > > > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > > > seem to think they are hard to digest. > > > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > > > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > > > my own) > > > Thanks! > > > Patrick
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some folks cannot eat raw veggies but cooked are ok… good luck! Pam
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > people as well as highly nutritious? > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > seem to think they are hard to digest. > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > my own) > Thanks! > Patrick
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what fruits do people have luck with? I’m also a bit hypo glycemic and try and eat snacks at 10 and 2 in adition to the 3 normal meals…but bananas were doing me bad as well…
Hi Sarah – I have the same problem with bananas. I get horrific gas unless I wait until they’re really spotted; then it isn’t quite as bad – I LOVE bananas Hugs, Linda
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If your anything like me, avoid the bananas. I end up in LOTS of pain if I > eat the slightest bit of banana. > That depends on what your allergies are! Some ppl react to salicylates > which are in nearly all fruits & veg, some react to fruit & veg with > particular colouring, some react to only veg in particular plant > families…you need a book with these references to help you through. > Anyway you’re less likely to have a reaction if cook things as it breaks > down a > lot of the protein.. but it won’t work with salicylate problems or food > colour reactions. > Some reactions can be quite idiosyncratic.. I can’t eat any fruit except > bananas, apples, pears and mangos. Can’t work that one under any heading > at > all. I can eat all veggies except sweetcorn, but ‘can’ eat corn > products. > All sorts of other odd things. I worked this out from having a few good > days, writing down everything I’d eaten for those days, and building on to > it from there. And had to cut out a lot of chemicals (soaps etc) I was > using for a while… turned out some of those were a problem too. > > Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > > people as well as highly nutritious? > > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > > seem to think they are hard to digest. > > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > > my own) > > Thanks! > > Patrick
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Hi Sarah – I have the same problem with bananas. I get horrific gas unless I wait until they’re really spotted; then it isn’t quite as bad – I LOVE bananas Hugs, Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If your anything like me, avoid the bananas. I end up in LOTS of pain if I > eat the slightest bit of banana. > That depends on what your allergies are! Some ppl react to salicylates > which are in nearly all fruits & veg, some react to fruit & veg with > particular colouring, some react to only veg in particular plant > families…you need a book with these references to help you through. > Anyway you’re less likely to have a reaction if cook things as it breaks > down a > lot of the protein.. but it won’t work with salicylate problems or food > colour reactions. > Some reactions can be quite idiosyncratic.. I can’t eat any fruit except > bananas, apples, pears and mangos. Can’t work that one under any heading > at > all. I can eat all veggies except sweetcorn, but ‘can’ eat corn > products. > All sorts of other odd things. I worked this out from having a few good > days, writing down everything I’d eaten for those days, and building on to > it from there. And had to cut out a lot of chemicals (soaps etc) I was > using for a while… turned out some of those were a problem too. > > Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > > people as well as highly nutritious? > > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > > seem to think they are hard to digest. > > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > > my own) > > Thanks! > > Patrick
Response:
Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many people as well as highly nutritious? All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people seem to think they are hard to digest. (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of my own) Thanks! Patrick
Response:
That depends on what your allergies are! Some ppl react to salicylates which are in nearly all fruits & veg, some react to fruit & veg with particular colouring, some react to only veg in particular plant families…you need a book with these references to help you through. Anyway you’re less likely to have a reaction if cook things as it breaks down a lot of the protein.. but it won’t work with salicylate problems or food colour reactions. Some reactions can be quite idiosyncratic.. I can’t eat any fruit except bananas, apples, pears and mangos. Can’t work that one under any heading at all. I can eat all veggies except sweetcorn, but ‘can’ eat corn products. All sorts of other odd things. I worked this out from having a few good days, writing down everything I’d eaten for those days, and building on to it from there. And had to cut out a lot of chemicals (soaps etc) I was using for a while… turned out some of those were a problem too.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > people as well as highly nutritious? > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > seem to think they are hard to digest. > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > my own) > Thanks! > Patrick
Response:
If your anything like me, avoid the bananas. I end up in LOTS of pain if I eat the slightest bit of banana.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> That depends on what your allergies are! Some ppl react to salicylates > which are in nearly all fruits & veg, some react to fruit & veg with > particular colouring, some react to only veg in particular plant > families…you need a book with these references to help you through. > Anyway you’re less likely to have a reaction if cook things as it breaks > down a > lot of the protein.. but it won’t work with salicylate problems or food > colour reactions. > Some reactions can be quite idiosyncratic.. I can’t eat any fruit except > bananas, apples, pears and mangos. Can’t work that one under any heading at > all. I can eat all veggies except sweetcorn, but ‘can’ eat corn products. > All sorts of other odd things. I worked this out from having a few good > days, writing down everything I’d eaten for those days, and building on to > it from there. And had to cut out a lot of chemicals (soaps etc) I was > using for a while… turned out some of those were a problem too. > Can anyone name a vegetable that is considered low-allergenic for many > people as well as highly nutritious? > All my elimination diet books say carrots are good, but some people > seem to think they are hard to digest. > (Oh and also please withhold the "see an allergist" stuff for now > please, thanks, I’m working on that, but trying to gather some info of > my own) > Thanks! > Patrick
Response:
Question:
About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG which I will be taking an hour later. Somehow carrot sticks or celery just doesn’t fill the bill. Neither does a Slim Jim. It doesn’t need to be much. Just a few bites. What would you suggest? Thanks, Chuck
Response:
Chuck… Know what you mean. Here are some recipes you may want to try. Jennifer Low carb cookies: Myra’s Coconut-Almond Macaroons 4 egg whites 1/4 teaspoon salt 1 teaspoon vanilla 1 cup Splenda (or equivalent AS) 1/2 cup finely ground, blanched almonds 2 cups shredded, unsweetened coconut Preheat oven to 325 degrees. In a mixing bowl, whip the egg whites, salt and vanilla until frothy, then, as you keep whipping, slowly pour in the Splenda. Whip until stiff peaks form – but not dried out. Fold in the almonds and coconut. Line a cookie sheet with parchment paper. Drop the macaroon batter by rounded tablespoons about 1/2-1 inch apart on the parchment (macaroons don’t rise or spread, so you can put them close together). Bake in the preheated oven for about 20 minutes, or until golden brown. Turn off the oven heat, open the door slightly, and let the macaroons sit in the oven until cool – this keeps the moisture content down. Store in an airtight container. Makes about 2 dozen macaroons, about 1.67 carbs each Meringue cookies 4 egg whites 12 pkgs. splenda 1 tablespoon cinnamon 1 tablespoon cornstarch 1/2 cup finely chopped pecans 1 teaspoon almond or vanilla extract Beat egg whited until stiff. Fold in remaining ingredients. Drop by generous teaspoonfuls onto silpat or parchment paper on cookie sheet. Bake in preheated 250 degree oven for 45 minutes. * Citrus Macaroons * 1 cup unsweetened coconut 2 Tablespoons Da Vinci sugar free vanilla syrup 5 packets Splenda 1/2 cup heavy whipping cream 1/2 teaspoon vanilla extract 1/4 teaspoon lemon or orange extract 4 Tablespoons full fat cream cheese (room temp.) 1 egg, beaten 1/4 cup finely chopped macadamia nuts or almonds 1/2 teaspoon lemon or orange zest Combine coconut, syrup, Splenda, cream and extracts. Allow to sit for one to two hours. Preheat oven to 375 degrees. Blend in cream cheese fully; then add pre-beaten egg. Mix well. Stir in the macadamia or almond nuts lemon or orange zest. Drop by Tablespoons into little mounds, on a parchment lined cookie sheet, about 2-inches apart. Bake for approximately 15-17 minutes, until tops are slightly brown. Makes 2 dozen cookies – 1.3 carbs per cookie. MYRA’S CHOCOLATE-WALNUT BROWNIES 1/2 cup butter, softened 1 1/2 cups Splenda 2 eggs 1 teaspoon vanilla 2 tablespoons cream (or water or coffee) 1 cup almond flour 1 teaspoon xanthan gum Pinch salt 1 teaspoon baking soda 4 ounces unsweetened chocolate, melted 1/4 cup chopped walnuts Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Grease an 8×8 square pan. In a mixer, cream together the butter and Splenda. Add the eggs, one at a time, incorporating well. Add the vanilla and cream, blending well. In a small bowl, mix together the almond flour, xantham gum, salt and baking soda. Add the almond flour mixture to the butter mixture, alternating with the chocolate. Fold in the nuts. This makes a very stiff batter – almost dough-like. Spread the batter in the greased pan, and baking for about 12-13 minutes, or until a knife inserted comes out clean. Cut into 16 1-inch squares. Makes 16 servings, 3.38 carbs per serving. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is > usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a > little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG > which I will be taking an hour later. Somehow carrot sticks or celery > just doesn’t fill the bill. Neither does a Slim Jim. It doesn’t need to > be much. Just a few bites. What would you suggest? > Thanks, > Chuck
Response:
We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been wanting to make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We haven’t had any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Chuck… > Know what you mean. > Here are some recipes you may want to try. > Jennifer > Low carb cookies: > Myra’s Coconut-Almond Macaroons > 4 egg whites > 1/4 teaspoon salt > 1 teaspoon vanilla > 1 cup Splenda (or equivalent AS) > 1/2 cup finely ground, blanched almonds > 2 cups shredded, unsweetened coconut > Preheat oven to 325 degrees. > In a mixing bowl, whip the egg whites, salt and vanilla until frothy, > then, as you keep whipping, slowly pour in the Splenda. Whip until stiff > peaks form – but not dried out. Fold in the almonds and coconut. > Line a cookie sheet with parchment paper. Drop the macaroon batter by > rounded tablespoons about 1/2-1 inch apart on the parchment > (macaroons don’t rise or spread, so you can put them close together). > Bake in the preheated oven for about 20 minutes, or until golden brown. > Turn off the oven heat, open the door slightly, and let the macaroons > sit in the oven until cool – this keeps the moisture content down. > Store in an airtight container. > Makes about 2 dozen macaroons, about 1.67 carbs each > Meringue cookies > 4 egg whites > 12 pkgs. splenda > 1 tablespoon cinnamon > 1 tablespoon cornstarch > 1/2 cup finely chopped pecans > 1 teaspoon almond or vanilla extract > Beat egg whited until stiff. Fold in remaining ingredients. Drop by generous > teaspoonfuls onto silpat or parchment paper on cookie sheet. Bake in > preheated > 250 degree oven for 45 minutes. > * Citrus Macaroons * > 1 cup unsweetened coconut > 2 Tablespoons Da Vinci sugar free vanilla syrup > 5 packets Splenda > 1/2 cup heavy whipping cream > 1/2 teaspoon vanilla extract > 1/4 teaspoon lemon or orange extract > 4 Tablespoons full fat cream cheese (room temp.) > 1 egg, beaten > 1/4 cup finely chopped macadamia nuts or almonds > 1/2 teaspoon lemon or orange zest > Combine coconut, syrup, Splenda, cream and extracts. Allow to > sit for one to two hours. > Preheat oven to 375 degrees. > Blend in cream cheese fully; then add pre-beaten egg. Mix well. > Stir in the macadamia or almond nuts lemon or orange zest. > Drop by Tablespoons into little mounds, on a parchment lined cookie > sheet, about 2-inches apart. Bake for approximately 15-17 minutes, > until tops are slightly brown. > Makes 2 dozen cookies – 1.3 carbs per cookie. > MYRA’S CHOCOLATE-WALNUT BROWNIES > 1/2 cup butter, softened > 1 1/2 cups Splenda > 2 eggs > 1 teaspoon vanilla > 2 tablespoons cream (or water or coffee) > 1 cup almond flour > 1 teaspoon xanthan gum > Pinch salt > 1 teaspoon baking soda > 4 ounces unsweetened chocolate, melted > 1/4 cup chopped walnuts > Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Grease an 8×8 square pan. > In a mixer, cream together the butter and Splenda. Add the eggs, one at a > time, incorporating well. Add the vanilla and cream, blending well. In a > small bowl, mix together the almond flour, xantham gum, salt and baking > soda. Add the almond flour mixture to the butter mixture, alternating > with the chocolate. Fold in the nuts. This makes a very stiff batter – > almost dough-like. > Spread the batter in the greased pan, and baking for about 12-13 minutes, > or until a knife inserted comes out clean. Cut into 16 1-inch squares. > Makes 16 servings, 3.38 carbs per serving. > About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is > usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a > little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG > which I will be taking an hour later. Somehow carrot sticks or celery > just doesn’t fill the bill. Neither does a Slim Jim. It doesn’t need to > be much. Just a few bites. What would you suggest? > Thanks, > Chuck
Response:
>Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We haven’t had >any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart.
I buy it at the local food co-op….otherwise known as a natural foods store. Wendy Peace and Carrots Farm Vermont http://www.homestead.com/peaceandcarrots/ http://www.heathershikinghiatus.homestead.com/
Response:
> We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been wanting to > make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We haven’t had > any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart.
I haven’t been able to find it either. Trader Joes said they get it around Christmas time. But now I’m in an area with no Trader Joes. Ah… It’s always something! — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/ Julie Bove, posting from new account
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I find it in most supermarkets in the health/organic food section. Cheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been wanting to >make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We haven’t had >any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart.
Response:
My local supermarkets carry it… but I know you can get it at most health food/natural stores. And I’ll bet you can mail order it from the web somewhere. Jennifer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been wanting to > make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We haven’t had > any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart. >Chuck… >Know what you mean. >Here are some recipes you may want to try. >Jennifer >Low carb cookies: >Myra’s Coconut-Almond Macaroons >4 egg whites >1/4 teaspoon salt >1 teaspoon vanilla >1 cup Splenda (or equivalent AS) >1/2 cup finely ground, blanched almonds >2 cups shredded, unsweetened coconut >Preheat oven to 325 degrees. >In a mixing bowl, whip the egg whites, salt and vanilla until frothy, >then, as you keep whipping, slowly pour in the Splenda. Whip until stiff >peaks form – but not dried out. Fold in the almonds and coconut. >Line a cookie sheet with parchment paper. Drop the macaroon batter by >rounded tablespoons about 1/2-1 inch apart on the parchment >(macaroons don’t rise or spread, so you can put them close together). >Bake in the preheated oven for about 20 minutes, or until golden brown. >Turn off the oven heat, open the door slightly, and let the macaroons >sit in the oven until cool – this keeps the moisture content down. >Store in an airtight container. >Makes about 2 dozen macaroons, about 1.67 carbs each >Meringue cookies >4 egg whites >12 pkgs. splenda >1 tablespoon cinnamon >1 tablespoon cornstarch >1/2 cup finely chopped pecans >1 teaspoon almond or vanilla extract >Beat egg whited until stiff. Fold in remaining ingredients. Drop by generous >teaspoonfuls onto silpat or parchment paper on cookie sheet. Bake in >preheated >250 degree oven for 45 minutes. >* Citrus Macaroons * >1 cup unsweetened coconut >2 Tablespoons Da Vinci sugar free vanilla syrup >5 packets Splenda >1/2 cup heavy whipping cream >1/2 teaspoon vanilla extract >1/4 teaspoon lemon or orange extract >4 Tablespoons full fat cream cheese (room temp.) >1 egg, beaten >1/4 cup finely chopped macadamia nuts or almonds >1/2 teaspoon lemon or orange zest >Combine coconut, syrup, Splenda, cream and extracts. Allow to >sit for one to two hours. >Preheat oven to 375 degrees. >Blend in cream cheese fully; then add pre-beaten egg. Mix well. >Stir in the macadamia or almond nuts lemon or orange zest. >Drop by Tablespoons into little mounds, on a parchment lined cookie >sheet, about 2-inches apart. Bake for approximately 15-17 minutes, >until tops are slightly brown. >Makes 2 dozen cookies – 1.3 carbs per cookie. >MYRA’S CHOCOLATE-WALNUT BROWNIES >1/2 cup butter, softened >1 1/2 cups Splenda >2 eggs >1 teaspoon vanilla >2 tablespoons cream (or water or coffee) >1 cup almond flour >1 teaspoon xanthan gum >Pinch salt >1 teaspoon baking soda >4 ounces unsweetened chocolate, melted >1/4 cup chopped walnuts >Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Grease an 8×8 square pan. >In a mixer, cream together the butter and Splenda. Add the eggs, one at a >time, incorporating well. Add the vanilla and cream, blending well. In a >small bowl, mix together the almond flour, xantham gum, salt and baking >soda. Add the almond flour mixture to the butter mixture, alternating >with the chocolate. Fold in the nuts. This makes a very stiff batter – >almost dough-like. >Spread the batter in the greased pan, and baking for about 12-13 minutes, >or until a knife inserted comes out clean. Cut into 16 1-inch squares. >Makes 16 servings, 3.38 carbs per serving. >>About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is >>usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a >>little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG >>which I will be taking an hour later. Somehow carrot sticks or celery >>just doesn’t fill the bill. Neither does a Slim Jim. It doesn’t need to >>be much. Just a few bites. What would you suggest? >>Thanks, >>Chuck
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My fabulous husband made me a treat the other night – it was so > fantastic that I have to share. > It was kind of a meringue thingy… > Recipie: > Preheat oven to 200 degrees (yes, only 200) > 2 egg whites 1 1/2 teaspoons Splenda or Equal > Beat the egg whites to stiff peaks, beat in the sweetner. Put some > parchement paper on a cookie sheet and divide the egg whites into 2 > blobs and smooth them out a little so they are about 3/4 of an inch > thick. Put them in the oven at 200 for about 30 minutes – they should be > lightly golden in color. Then turn the oven off and leave them in it for > about 2 hours. > Once they are cooled in the oven, take them out and split them in half. > Spread bottom with some sugar free jam and a little whipping cream or > substitute if you prefer. YUM! It was just like a treat from the bakery. > I was so impressed.
I would have made pavlovas out of the shells 
Pile some thickly whipped unsweetened cream on top (not the stuff from an aerosol can that melts in your mouth before you get to swallow but the Real McCoy). Then top with sliced strawberries and other bits of low GI fruit and a drizzle of real passionfruit. Yummo!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been > wanting to > make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? > Check inside one of those brown hairy fruits – lots of unsweetened > coconuts – shred it yourself. If you open the coconut just right and you > have a grass skirt …. you’ve got a Halloween costume! (for the humor > impaired (-; ) > We haven’t had > any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart. > — > Truly
Now that is funny! When we buy a fresh coconut it would have a hard time getting to the shredder. We both just love the stuff and usually keep ginnin’ and pickin’ until we have eaten the whole thing. I will bring it up to the missus though. Hmm, maybe we should buy two; one to eat and one to shred. Sounds like a plan.
Response:
My fabulous husband made me a treat the other night – it was so fantastic that I have to share. It was kind of a meringue thingy… Recipie: Preheat oven to 200 degrees (yes, only 200) 2 egg whites 1 1/2 teaspoons Splenda or Equal Beat the egg whites to stiff peaks, beat in the sweetner. Put some parchement paper on a cookie sheet and divide the egg whites into 2 blobs and smooth them out a little so they are about 3/4 of an inch thick. Put them in the oven at 200 for about 30 minutes – they should be lightly golden in color. Then turn the oven off and leave them in it for about 2 hours. Once they are cooled in the oven, take them out and split them in half. Spread bottom with some sugar free jam and a little whipping cream or substitute if you prefer. YUM! It was just like a treat from the bakery. I was so impressed. — Posted via Active Low-Carber Forums, for Low-Carb & Atkins Diet Support http://forum.lowcarber.org & http://www.lowcarb.ca
Response:
:> We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been : wanting to :> make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? : Check inside one of those brown hairy fruits – lots of unsweetened : coconuts – shred it yourself. If you open the coconut just right and you : have a grass skirt …. you’ve got a Halloween costume! (for the humor : impaired (-; ) : We haven’t had :> any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart. :> : — : Truly I have found unsweetened coconut through the Atlantic Spice Co. www.atlanticspice.com Phone# 800-316-7965 They sell a pound for $2.30. This company carries all kinds of spices, some baking supplies, stuff for pot pourris, etc. Their prices re ridulously low, you have to order everything in pound amounts and must order t least $30 of stuff. If you have friends, you could shae stuff in an order. I do this with my grown kids. You wouldn’t believe how much 1 pound of dried spinach or basil is until you get it! You can even get a pount of nutmeg! 90 nutmegs. More thn a liftime supply:-) I have no interest in this company, but found it in one of those book on how to find bargains. Believe me, this place is a bargain. I get the dried vegetables adn use them i making omelettes for breakfast without having to spend lots of time shoping up the vegetables. They have a sister company for those on the West Coast called The San Francisco Spice Co. They have some foods in 1/4 lb bags, but for East Coast people the shipping is much higher. I would guess their url woudl be www.sanfranciscospice.com If you call the Atlantic peopel I am sure that they could give you all the information. They are not organic Wendy Baker
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: Today we were at Wal Mart and I noticed in their fresh bakery section they had : "Sugar Free" cookies. I read the label. No surprise there. Each cookie had just as : many carbs as those with sugar (in fact more in a couple of cases) and they were : the same size. I can’t help but wonder where the carbs that would normally be from : sugar are coming from when they are using artificial sweetener in the "Sugar Free" : ones.
:> :> :> :> :> : Oh – and about a "munchie with coffee" …… Believe it or not I found that :> : eating a small apple, very slowly as an after dinner munchie was delicious :> : and did not seem to upset the apple cart with the BG’s either. :> :> : Regards, :> : Evelyn :> :> How about a small piece of cheese or a soft sheese apread stuffed onto :> celery or peanut butter also stuffed into the celery (not at the same time :> please:-) :> :> I sometimes eat one or two of the "LIfe Savers " no sugar ice bars. they :> have only 2 grs of carbo each and 10 calories. You could even have these :> with the cheese, celery et al and feel like you had a small meal all over :> again. :> :> Wendy Baker Those cookies contain the sugar alcohol sweeteners like sorbitol, and all the other tols. They are absorbed more slowly wo generally don’t spike yu, but watch out for your innards. they wreak havoc with the digetion and lead to gas, stomach crampls and worse if you at more than a little bit of them. I gather that they are easier for the companies to work with then the no-carb sweeteners. Wendy Baker
Response:
You must have some pretty special supermarkets. I have never seen a section like that in any Iowa supermarket. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I find it in most supermarkets in the health/organic food section. > Cheri >We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been > wanting to >make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We > haven’t had >any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart.
Response:
Uh, how many do you call "some"? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Some almonds ? >About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is >usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a >little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG >which I will be taking an hour later. Somehow carrot sticks or celery >just doesn’t fill the bill. Neither does a Slim Jim. It doesn’t need to >be much. Just a few bites. What would you suggest? >Thanks, >Chuck > bill_supon at yahoo dot net
Response:
You are probably right, but in my experience you pay two to three times as much plus exorbitant S&H charges. It ant’ worth it to me on a limited budget. Thanks anyway. I’ll check our locally owned health food store and see if they happen to have it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My local supermarkets carry it… but I know you can get it at most > health food/natural stores. And I’ll bet you can mail order it from the > web somewhere. > Jennifer > We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been wanting to > make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We haven’t had > any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart. >>Chuck… >>Know what you mean. >>Here are some recipes you may want to try. >>Jennifer >>Low carb cookies: >>Myra’s Coconut-Almond Macaroons >>4 egg whites >>1/4 teaspoon salt >>1 teaspoon vanilla >>1 cup Splenda (or equivalent AS) >>1/2 cup finely ground, blanched almonds >>2 cups shredded, unsweetened coconut >>Preheat oven to 325 degrees. >>In a mixing bowl, whip the egg whites, salt and vanilla until frothy, >>then, as you keep whipping, slowly pour in the Splenda. Whip until stiff >>peaks form – but not dried out. Fold in the almonds and coconut. >>Line a cookie sheet with parchment paper. Drop the macaroon batter by >>rounded tablespoons about 1/2-1 inch apart on the parchment >>(macaroons don’t rise or spread, so you can put them close together). >>Bake in the preheated oven for about 20 minutes, or until golden brown. >>Turn off the oven heat, open the door slightly, and let the macaroons >>sit in the oven until cool – this keeps the moisture content down. >>Store in an airtight container. >>Makes about 2 dozen macaroons, about 1.67 carbs each >>Meringue cookies >>4 egg whites >>12 pkgs. splenda >>1 tablespoon cinnamon >>1 tablespoon cornstarch >>1/2 cup finely chopped pecans >>1 teaspoon almond or vanilla extract >>Beat egg whited until stiff. Fold in remaining ingredients. Drop by generous >>teaspoonfuls onto silpat or parchment paper on cookie sheet. Bake in >>preheated >>250 degree oven for 45 minutes. >>* Citrus Macaroons * >>1 cup unsweetened coconut >>2 Tablespoons Da Vinci sugar free vanilla syrup >>5 packets Splenda >>1/2 cup heavy whipping cream >>1/2 teaspoon vanilla extract >>1/4 teaspoon lemon or orange extract >>4 Tablespoons full fat cream cheese (room temp.) >>1 egg, beaten >>1/4 cup finely chopped macadamia nuts or almonds >>1/2 teaspoon lemon or orange zest >>Combine coconut, syrup, Splenda, cream and extracts. Allow to >>sit for one to two hours. >>Preheat oven to 375 degrees. >>Blend in cream cheese fully; then add pre-beaten egg. Mix well. >>Stir in the macadamia or almond nuts lemon or orange zest. >>Drop by Tablespoons into little mounds, on a parchment lined cookie >>sheet, about 2-inches apart. Bake for approximately 15-17 minutes, >>until tops are slightly brown. >>Makes 2 dozen cookies – 1.3 carbs per cookie. >>MYRA’S CHOCOLATE-WALNUT BROWNIES >>1/2 cup butter, softened >>1 1/2 cups Splenda >>2 eggs >>1 teaspoon vanilla >>2 tablespoons cream (or water or coffee) >>1 cup almond flour >>1 teaspoon xanthan gum >>Pinch salt >>1 teaspoon baking soda >>4 ounces unsweetened chocolate, melted >>1/4 cup chopped walnuts >>Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Grease an 8×8 square pan. >>In a mixer, cream together the butter and Splenda. Add the eggs, one at a >>time, incorporating well. Add the vanilla and cream, blending well. In a >>small bowl, mix together the almond flour, xantham gum, salt and baking >>soda. Add the almond flour mixture to the butter mixture, alternating >>with the chocolate. Fold in the nuts. This makes a very stiff batter – >>almost dough-like. >>Spread the batter in the greased pan, and baking for about 12-13 minutes, >>or until a knife inserted comes out clean. Cut into 16 1-inch squares. >>Makes 16 servings, 3.38 carbs per serving. >>>About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is >>>usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a >>>little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG >>>which I will be taking an hour later. Somehow carrot sticks or celery >>>just doesn’t fill the bill. Neither does a Slim Jim. It doesn’t need to >>>be much. Just a few bites. What would you suggest? >>>Thanks, >>>Chuck
Response:
There is one of those in Iowa City, but we seldom get down there. Next time we do we will check it out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We haven’t had >any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart. > I buy it at the local food co-op….otherwise known as a natural foods store. > Wendy > Peace and Carrots Farm > Vermont > http://www.homestead.com/peaceandcarrots/ > http://www.heathershikinghiatus.homestead.com/
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Today we were at Wal Mart and I noticed in their fresh bakery section they had "Sugar Free" cookies. I read the label. No surprise there. Each cookie had just as many carbs as those with sugar (in fact more in a couple of cases) and they were the same size. I can’t help but wonder where the carbs that would normally be from sugar are coming from when they are using artificial sweetener in the "Sugar Free" ones. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > : Oh – and about a "munchie with coffee" …… Believe it or not I found that > : eating a small apple, very slowly as an after dinner munchie was delicious > : and did not seem to upset the apple cart with the BG’s either. > : Regards, > : Evelyn > How about a small piece of cheese or a soft sheese apread stuffed onto > celery or peanut butter also stuffed into the celery (not at the same time > please:-) > I sometimes eat one or two of the "LIfe Savers " no sugar ice bars. they > have only 2 grs of carbo each and 10 calories. You could even have these > with the cheese, celery et al and feel like you had a small meal all over > again. > Wendy Baker
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> About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is > usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a > little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG > which I will be taking an hour later.
I just hold out till after my reading. And then the reading helps me decide what to have (or whether to wait a little longer). But I’ll have to try that recipe! — Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau
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:> : Oh – and about a "munchie with coffee" …… Believe it or not I found that : eating a small apple, very slowly as an after dinner munchie was delicious : and did not seem to upset the apple cart with the BG’s either. : Regards, : Evelyn How about a small piece of cheese or a soft sheese apread stuffed onto celery or peanut butter also stuffed into the celery (not at the same time please:-) I sometimes eat one or two of the "LIfe Savers " no sugar ice bars. they have only 2 grs of carbo each and 10 calories. You could even have these with the cheese, celery et al and feel like you had a small meal all over again. Wendy Baker
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I find it in most supermarkets in the health/organic food section. > Cheri > >We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been > wanting to > >make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We > haven’t had > >any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart. > There used to be a mail order place that had natural/health foods by mail > called "Mountain Ark". I don’t know if they are still in business, but if > they are I would just bet they have a website. If not, there are other > places that sell natural products over the web so I hear. > Regards, > Evelyn
Oh – and about a "munchie with coffee" …… Believe it or not I found that eating a small apple, very slowly as an after dinner munchie was delicious and did not seem to upset the apple cart with the BG’s either. Regards, Evelyn
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Some almonds ? >About forty-five minutes to an hour after my evening meal, which is >usually pretty small, I have my evening cup of coffee. I like to have a >little something to munch on with it, but I don’t want to mess up my BG >which I will be taking an hour later. Somehow carrot sticks or celery >just doesn’t fill the bill. Neither does a Slim Jim. It doesn’t need to >be much. Just a few bites. What would you suggest? >Thanks, >Chuck
bill_supon at yahoo dot net
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> I find it in most supermarkets in the health/organic food section. > Cheri >We have the recipe for the Coconut-Almond Macaroons. My wife has been > wanting to >make it. Where the heck do you find unsweetened shredded coconut? We > haven’t had >any luck finding it at any of the local stores, including WalMart.
There used to be a mail order place that had natural/health foods by mail called "Mountain Ark". I don’t know if they are still in business, but if they are I would just bet they have a website. If not, there are other places that sell natural products over the web so I hear. Regards, Evelyn
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Question:
>Is horde manure a good thing to add to vegetable gardens? >Thanks >(To send e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)
Yes. It can burn plants if it is fresh. Pile it up in an unused section in your garden, let it steep over the winter, next spring spread the manure evenly over the garden and till it into the soil. The composting process helps to kill some of the unwanted weed seeds.
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Heres a link for some info. http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/SoilCrop/extension/Soils/cnmp/sec13.html 1 of the big benefits of using llama manure is it doesn’t smell or attract flys. If you live near by, stop by and you can have all you want, fresh from our pastures. Randy >Horse manure works great if aged if I remember it is like 1-1-1. best to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->have the pile in the fall or late summer keep it moist then come spring time >you are all set. Like most organic fertilizer it breaks down from one year >to the next so you will always be adding. >Wayne
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Try llama poop instead. Ready to use fresh out of the llama. No waiting, no turning. And it’s probably the best natural fertilizer around. Randy >We have always used horse manure on our vegetable and flower gardens. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->However horse manure, unlike cow manure, must sit for a while to before >you use it. >Pile it up in an inconspicous part of your property and turn the pile >once a week for a couple of months. You will be surprised at the amount >of heat/steam that is released when you start digging. Don’t know >exactly how long it should "cook" but when the pile calms down we use >it. >Works great… >Lori > Is horde manure a good thing to add to vegetable gardens? > Thanks > (To send e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)
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Horse manure works great if aged if I remember it is like 1-1-1. best to have the pile in the fall or late summer keep it moist then come spring time you are all set. Like most organic fertilizer it breaks down from one year to the next so you will always be adding. Wayne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is horde manure a good thing to add to vegetable gardens? > Thanks > (To send e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)
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Is horde manure a good thing to add to vegetable gardens? Thanks (To send e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)
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We have always used horse manure on our vegetable and flower gardens. However horse manure, unlike cow manure, must sit for a while to before you use it. Pile it up in an inconspicous part of your property and turn the pile once a week for a couple of months. You will be surprised at the amount of heat/steam that is released when you start digging. Don’t know exactly how long it should "cook" but when the pile calms down we use it. Works great… Lori > Is horde manure a good thing to add to vegetable gardens? > Thanks > (To send e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)
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> Is horde manure a good thing to add to vegetable gardens?
In short, NO. It’s too "hot". Cow, rabbit, and chicken manure is able to be applied and planted in a much shorter time period.
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Question:
<snip> > I mix a "bath" of water and grapefruit seed extract then give em a bath, a > gentle scrubbing then a rinse. > Where do you get that? I never heard of it.
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html Potent and versatile stuff. I also use it when mopping the floors and in the dishwasher for cleaning birdie toys and perches. — —Stash "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." – H.L. Menken
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > <snip> > > I mix a "bath" of water and grapefruit seed extract then give em a bath, a > > gentle scrubbing then a rinse. > Where do you get that? I never heard of it. > http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html > Potent and versatile stuff. I also use it when mopping the floors and in the > dishwasher for cleaning birdie toys and perches. > — > —Stash > "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence > of the American public." – H.L. Menken
Thanks, I had never heard of this stuff. I’ll order some and see how it works. — "You live and you learn, or you don’t live long." Lazarus Long
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> I mix a "bath" of water and grapefruit seed extract then give em a bath, a > gentle scrubbing then a rinse. > — > —Stash > "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence > of the American public." – H.L. Menken
Where do you get that? I never heard of it. — Sincerely, Joanne If it’s right for you, then it’s right, . . . . . for you!!! Play – http://www.jobird.com Pay for Play – http://www.jobird.com/refund.htm Looking for Love? – http://www.jobird.com/hearts.htm
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>> I mix a "bath" of water and grapefruit seed extract then give em a bath, a > gentle scrubbing then a rinse. > — > —Stash > "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence > of the American public." – H.L. Menken >Where do you get that? I never heard of it. >– >Sincerely, >Joanne
We order ours from www.nutriteam.com. They sell it in health food stores around us, but it was a lot more expensive than ordering it online. There may even be less expensive online outlets than Nutriteam tho. We shopped around, but not all that much. Regards, TPaul
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It is expensive at the health food stores – about $10 for 2 oz – but that 2 oz lasts us at least 6 months. A little bit goes a LONG way, it’s very potent stuff. owly http://www.dotphoto.com/Go.asp?l=chiaowl&P=sherry&AID=0&GID=72976&T=1 Dull women have clean houses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We order ours from www.nutriteam.com. They sell it in health food stores > around us, but it was a lot more expensive than ordering it online. There may > even be less expensive online outlets than Nutriteam tho. We shopped around, > but not all that much.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > It’s true that removing the skins of fruits/vegetables will greatly > reduce > > the "bad" stuff. Sometimes you still need to wash them before peeling > as > > when you peel it gets on your hands and then the fruit. In fact, if you > > aren’t eating the peel, you can wash even more vigorously with soap. > > -Jessica > I agree; and before cutting into melons, I always scrub the outside of > them so the knife doesn’t spread surface germs, etc. onto the fruit with > the slicing stroke. > I never have scrubbed bananas, but I can’t think of any other fruit or > vegetable that I don’t scrub thoroughly with soap and an abrasive pad. > Then I rinse really well with cold water. > Even delicate things like berries get a pretty rough going over with > soap and fingers. > — > Sincerely, > Joanne > If it’s right for you, then it’s right, . . . . . for you!!! > Play – http://www.jobird.com > Pay for Play – http://www.jobird.com/refund.htm > Looking for Love? – http://www.jobird.com/hearts.htm > I do this also, for the same reasons. It’s not just for the pesticides, but > I want to remove the stuff that would be on the surface from handling and > such. Same as rinsing the top of a can before opening it > — > "You live and you learn, or you don’t live long." > Lazarus Long
I mix a "bath" of water and grapefruit seed extract then give em a bath, a gentle scrubbing then a rinse. — —Stash "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." – H.L. Menken
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[...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> here’s a list > of the foods which contain the most pesticides (and should be purchased as > organic if possible) and the foods which contain the least amount of > pesticides (and would be okay if not organic). (The source is listed at the > bottom.) > Most: > 1. Strawberries > 2. Bell Peppers (tie with Spinach) > 2. Spinach (tie with bell peppers) > 4. Cherries > 5. Peaches > 6. Cantaloupe (Mexico) > 7. Celery > 8. Apples > 9. Apricots > 10. Green Beans > 11. Grapes (Chile) > 12. Cucumbers > And here’s a list with the least pesticide residues: > 1. Avocado (which should never be fed to birds!) > 2. Corn > 3. Onions > 4. Sweet Potato > 5. Cauliflower > 6. Brussels Sprouts > 7. US Grapes > 8. Bananas > 9. Plums > 10. Green Onions > 11. Watermelon > 12. Broccoli > Source: http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/Shoppers/shoppers.html
Thanks for posting this info, Jessica. I’m glad to see that most of the produce I feed my babies is on the ‘least’ list. I do wash everything thoroughly, just to be safe. — Mama ~^~^~^~ Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/> -To email me: change nest to net- "Good Morning is an oxymoron"
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> I came across this list of the worst & best fruits and vegetables in regard > to pesticide residues. I try to buy organic for my bird whenever possible > because he eats so little (just like a bird, sorry, couldn’t resist) and > it’s readily available in Seattle. But for those of you who can’t afford to > feed your birds everything organic or don’t have it available, here’s a list > of the foods which contain the most pesticides (and should be purchased as > organic if possible) and the foods which contain the least amount of > pesticides (and would be okay if not organic). (The source is listed at the > bottom.)
<snipped list> That is why I plan to grow as much as I can myself, than I *know* it is organic. Or as my dotty friend Sue says, ‘orgasmic’. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [...] > here’s a list > of the foods which contain the most pesticides (and should be purchased as > organic if possible) and the foods which contain the least amount of > pesticides (and would be okay if not organic). (The source is listed at > the > bottom.) > > Source: http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/Shoppers/shoppers.html > Thanks for posting this info, Jessica. I’m glad to see that most of the > produce I feed my babies is on the ‘least’ list. I do wash everything > thoroughly, just to be safe. > — > Mama > ~^~^~^~ Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/> > -To email me: change nest to net- > "Good Morning is an oxymoron"
I feed apple, banana, and orange daily. I peel the apple for them, figuring most of the residue would be on the skin?? Interesting about the grapes. I’ll start looking at where they come from before I buy. — "You live and you learn, or you don’t live long." Lazarus Long
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It’s true that removing the skins of fruits/vegetables will greatly reduce the "bad" stuff. Sometimes you still need to wash them before peeling as when you peel it gets on your hands and then the fruit. In fact, if you aren’t eating the peel, you can wash even more vigorously with soap. -Jessica
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> [...] > > here’s a list > > of the foods which contain the most pesticides (and should be purchased > as > > organic if possible) and the foods which contain the least amount of > > pesticides (and would be okay if not organic). (The source is listed at > the > > bottom.) >> > Source: http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/Shoppers/shoppers.html > Thanks for posting this info, Jessica. I’m glad to see that most of the > produce I feed my babies is on the ‘least’ list. I do wash everything > thoroughly, just to be safe. > — > Mama > ~^~^~^~ Visit Mamabird’s Nest: <http://iluvbirds.tripod.com/> > -To email me: change nest to net- > "Good Morning is an oxymoron" > I feed apple, banana, and orange daily. I peel the apple for them, figuring > most of the residue would be on the skin?? > Interesting about the grapes. I’ll start looking at where they come from > before I buy. > — > "You live and you learn, or you don’t live long." > Lazarus Long
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> It’s true that removing the skins of fruits/vegetables will greatly reduce > the "bad" stuff. Sometimes you still need to wash them before peeling as > when you peel it gets on your hands and then the fruit. In fact, if you > aren’t eating the peel, you can wash even more vigorously with soap. > -Jessica
I agree; and before cutting into melons, I always scrub the outside of them so the knife doesn’t spread surface germs, etc. onto the fruit with the slicing stroke. I never have scrubbed bananas, but I can’t think of any other fruit or vegetable that I don’t scrub thoroughly with soap and an abrasive pad. Then I rinse really well with cold water. Even delicate things like berries get a pretty rough going over with soap and fingers. — Sincerely, Joanne If it’s right for you, then it’s right, . . . . . for you!!! Play – http://www.jobird.com Pay for Play – http://www.jobird.com/refund.htm Looking for Love? – http://www.jobird.com/hearts.htm
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s true that removing the skins of fruits/vegetables will greatly reduce > the "bad" stuff. Sometimes you still need to wash them before peeling as > when you peel it gets on your hands and then the fruit. In fact, if you > aren’t eating the peel, you can wash even more vigorously with soap. > -Jessica > I agree; and before cutting into melons, I always scrub the outside of > them so the knife doesn’t spread surface germs, etc. onto the fruit with > the slicing stroke. > I never have scrubbed bananas, but I can’t think of any other fruit or > vegetable that I don’t scrub thoroughly with soap and an abrasive pad. > Then I rinse really well with cold water. > Even delicate things like berries get a pretty rough going over with > soap and fingers. > — > Sincerely, > Joanne > If it’s right for you, then it’s right, . . . . . for you!!! > Play – http://www.jobird.com > Pay for Play – http://www.jobird.com/refund.htm > Looking for Love? – http://www.jobird.com/hearts.htm
I do this also, for the same reasons. It’s not just for the pesticides, but I want to remove the stuff that would be on the surface from handling and such. Same as rinsing the top of a can before opening it — "You live and you learn, or you don’t live long." Lazarus Long
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I came across this list of the worst & best fruits and vegetables in regard to pesticide residues. I try to buy organic for my bird whenever possible because he eats so little (just like a bird, sorry, couldn’t resist) and it’s readily available in Seattle. But for those of you who can’t afford to feed your birds everything organic or don’t have it available, here’s a list of the foods which contain the most pesticides (and should be purchased as organic if possible) and the foods which contain the least amount of pesticides (and would be okay if not organic). (The source is listed at the bottom.) Most: 1. Strawberries 2. Bell Peppers (tie with Spinach) 2. Spinach (tie with bell peppers) 4. Cherries 5. Peaches 6. Cantaloupe (Mexico) 7. Celery 8. Apples 9. Apricots 10. Green Beans 11. Grapes (Chile) 12. Cucumbers And here’s a list with the least pesticide residues: 1. Avocado (which should never be fed to birds!) 2. Corn 3. Onions 4. Sweet Potato 5. Cauliflower 6. Brussels Sprouts 7. US Grapes 8. Bananas 9. Plums 10. Green Onions 11. Watermelon 12. Broccoli Source: http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/Shoppers/shoppers.html -Jessica
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Question:
Does anyone here know of the benefits of organic produce over conventionally reared/produced food? I say this because I have been drinking goats milk for over a year now and east organic bread, butter etc but because of the other treatments that I have had for P I don’t know if this has helped. I don’t eat organic vegetables or meats as I think this is a step too far. I was told that I should give up butter and such like but for me this is also a step too far so I have gone for the organic option which here in London at least, (thank’s Tesco) is relatively easy to find and well priced. JM
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> Does anyone here know of the benefits of organic produce > over conventionally reared/produced food? I say this > because I have been drinking goats milk for over a year > now and east organic bread, butter etc but because of the > other treatments that I have had for P I don’t know if > this has helped.
If you’re asking if organic foods are better for psoriasis, the answer appears to be "nobody knows." There haven’t been any studies done on this question, at least not since 1965. If you’re asking if organically-grown foods are better for people in general, then, from what I’ve gathered from the odd Web page or two, NPR, and science shows on TV is that organically-grown foods aren’t known to be significantly beneficial for the people eating them, the benefit is to the environment as a whole. Not using tons of antibiotics on cows, for example, will limit the amount of antibiotic-resistant bacteria found in the fields, and in streams and lakes near the farm. On the other hand, natural pesticides and poisons can be just as lethal as synthetic ones – but less of them tends to be used, because while they’re allowed to be used on certified-organic crops, they’re not encouraged to be used (and in some cases, actively discouraged). Organically-grown foods don’t generally contain any more or less of the important human nutrients, so they’re not much better for you in that sense (and contrary to popular belief, if the soil is deficient in nutrients, plants won’t grow: you don’t get plants which lack vitamins – you get no plants whatsoever). A review of the scientific literature published this past February did find that conventional crops had more nitrates (perhaps due to fertilizer use?) and less vitamin C (but in this day-and-age, in Western countries, vitamin C deficiency is not something that’s generally worried about). This same review of the literature found no good studies done on the health effects of eating organic foods over conventional foods. But another study found that people who buy organic *perceive* them to be healthier, and they tend to live healthier lifestyles, anyway. Organically-grown foods cannot be guaranteed to be synthetic-chemical-free, since many chemicals are commonplace. Don’t forget that rain, for example, will drop just as many air-borne pollutants on organic fields as on conventional fields. I’ve also seen, in my local partially-organic food store, the organic apples stacked up right next to (touching!) the conventionally-grown pears. I also figure it’s not common practice in such stores for the people who put the produce out for display to wash their hands (or change gloves) between handling convetional foods and organic foods. Goat’s milk, butter and bread are most-likely ‘immune’ to that last particular sort of ‘contamination’, though, unless the same packaging equipment is in use (but I doubt that). Anyway, what I’ve gotten from all this is that if you want to be environmentally friendly, buy organic. If you want a healthy diet, and don’t particularly care about the environment, you don’t have to go the organic route to eat good foods (and snacking on too many organic pretzels is probably not much healthier for you than snacking on lots of sythetic-chemical-laden pretzels). Did I mention that there’s a guy where I work who smokes organic cigarettes? Go figure. – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/
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Question:
> As one of many >examples, consider India where hunger regins among the majority of the >population, is totally unecessary, comes directly from false religious >belief.
Hush. We shouldn’t be so judgemental about Indian poverty and their religious atttiudes towards sacred cows. I believe it is mainly this image of Indian poverty that so frustrates comprehension by non Indians. There was a socio-economic study done by a UK team some 20 years ago about the economics of sacred cows. That report appeared in the News Scientist and was quoted quite widely in its day. There is a method to their madness. The cow wanders unmolested all day and finds its own food and turns otherwise unuseable vegetation into valuable muscle, and later, protein. The cow is not converted to meat, hide and horn until it dies naturally. And then practically all its parts that were not eaten were used to support a thriving handicrafts industry. The cow requires no maintenance in its wanderings to wherever it wants. Tradition made proof of ownership a non issue – never claim some else’s cow. By dusk it will find its own way home. Their dried dung provides cooking fuel where fossil fuel is scarce and expensive. The cow provides muscle for ploughing, seeding, harvesting, hauling and can be rented out to others. It provides milk and if calved, a new asset for the owner. An audit of this tradition surprisingly revealed that this was a viable economic model in a land that had always been poor in resources. This is why it had lasted more than 2000 years without change and had worked itself intimatley into the fabric of society to acquire the status of a religious practice. That’s as much as I can remember of a very fascinating report.
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yeah and they use the cow’s urine to clense themselves of evil spirits,too. go figure – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As one of many >examples, consider India where hunger regins among the majority of the >population, is totally unecessary, comes directly from false religious >belief. > Hush. We shouldn’t be so judgemental about Indian poverty and their > religious atttiudes towards sacred cows. I believe it is mainly this > image of Indian poverty that so frustrates comprehension by non > Indians. There was a socio-economic study done by a UK team some 20 > years ago about the economics of sacred cows. That report appeared > in the News Scientist and was quoted quite widely in its day. > There is a method to their madness. > The cow wanders unmolested all day and finds its own food and turns > otherwise unuseable vegetation into valuable muscle, and later, > protein. The cow is not converted to meat, hide and horn until it > dies naturally. And then practically all its parts that were not > eaten were used to support a thriving handicrafts industry. > The cow requires no maintenance in its wanderings to wherever it > wants. Tradition made proof of ownership a non issue – never claim > some else’s cow. By dusk it will find its own way home. Their dried > dung provides cooking fuel where fossil fuel is scarce and expensive. > The cow provides muscle for ploughing, seeding, harvesting, hauling > and can be rented out to others. It provides milk and if calved, a > new asset for the owner. > An audit of this tradition surprisingly revealed that this was a > viable economic model in a land that had always been poor in > resources. This is why it had lasted more than 2000 years without > change and had worked itself intimatley into the fabric of society to > acquire the status of a religious practice. > That’s as much as I can remember of a very fascinating report.
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> YEEEE-HAAAAW!!!! > I just came from a vacation touring historic Jamestown, and heard stories > from the historic guides about how those first settlers had to eat mice to > survive. > You can eat possum, squirrels and other would-be-road-kill if you want, but > I’d have to be starving first.
hereya go! http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~bcotton/Possum.jpg
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> It’s tasty, but doesn’t come close to bald eagle. Mmmmmmmm. >My favorite is fried spotted owl…..mmmmm spotted owl….
MMMMM! and Baby Seal fritters!!!!
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k, how bout I just make fun of web t.v. users and how they are all trolls.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://www.bertc.com/mrspossum.htm > http://www.mikebolton.com/possum_cookbook.htm > Coons are good, too. >THIS IS NOT TURTLE. >I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat >possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our >diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, >raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken >(filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a >roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are >ugly, but they taste great! >Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of >them. >Loretta
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>> It’s tasty, but doesn’t come close to bald eagle. Mmmmmmmm. > >My favorite is fried spotted owl…..mmmmm spotted owl…. >MMMMM! and Baby Seal fritters!!!!
Really? I thought fritters were on the endangered list… . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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> THIS IS NOT TURTLE. > I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat > possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our > diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, > raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken > (filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a > roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are > ugly, but they taste great! > Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of > them. > Loretta
This is Turtle. You made me go back to all the threads and read up on anybody speaking bad of people eating Bake Possiom , Sweet Potatos, and black eye peas. I could not find any here. If there is any you know of let me know and I’ll give’m some bad mouth. I got to say them Possium’s are the ugliest thing there is. I’m not wild about them for I’ve move up to the finer thing in life and only eat Squirrels , Rabbits, Black Birds, Doves, Bear, Alligators, and Deer. I give up possiums, Armodillios, and Coons . TURTLE
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Looks like Spot, my neighbour’s dog!! Always thought there was something odd about that dog, like, he would only come out at night!! and he ate worms!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> YEEEE-HAAAAW!!!! > I just came from a vacation touring historic Jamestown, and heard stories > from the historic guides about how those first settlers had to eat mice to > survive. > You can eat possum, squirrels and other would-be-road-kill if you want, but > I’d have to be starving first. > hereya go! > http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~bcotton/Possum.jpg
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Is that frozen Seal or freshly clubbed????? > MMMMM! and Baby Seal fritters!!!!
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Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article > THIS IS NOT TURTLE. > I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat > possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our > diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, > raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken > (filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a > roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are > ugly, but they taste great! > Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of > them. > Loretta > At a regular zoo, each cage has a plaque describing the animal > contained therein. > At a redneck zoo, each cage has a plaque describing the animal > contained therein…plus a tasty recipe. > For further info: "Kill It and Grill It : Ted and Shemane Nugent’s > Guide to Preparing & Cooking Fish & Game" — Ted Nugent, Shemane > Nugent; Hardcover; available at a bookstore near you or via Amazon.com > John
I guess lots of folks are vegetarians. Or it’s that as long as someone else kills it for them, things are somehow different. Fact is that wild game fed all of mankind until we learned how to domesticate certain species. Or did we become "civilized"? And still today a lot of mankind feeds themselves with what they can kill. Although today, more and more folks think hamburg, steak, pork chops, ham, chicken etc. comes from the grocery store. Today if it doesn’t come with cooking instructions on the package (or on that plaque at the zoo) and take less than 10 minutes to "cook", or it’s prepared in a restaurant, it’s not edible. You city slickers just keep poking fun at the country folk and we’ll keep feeding your sorry asses. Well, we will as long as we get what we need from the activity or more asses move to the ‘country’ and keep changing it until there’s none left. I just love to listen to ‘them’ after they are overrun with deer, opossum, squirrel, skunks, ‘coon, groundhog, coyote, mountain lion and such and their ideas of what ’should’ be done to protect ‘them’ and theirs. Poor dumb rich asses.
Response:
>It’s tasty, but doesn’t come close to bald eagle. Mmmmmmmm.
I dunno, without a Hollandaise sauce it tastes like Whooping crane.
Response:
>It’s tasty, but doesn’t come close to bald eagle. Mmmmmmmm. > I dunno, without a Hollandaise sauce it tastes like Whooping crane.
I though it tastes like chicken….
Response:
>You city slickers just keep poking fun at the country folk and we’ll >keep feeding your sorry asses. Well, we will as long as we get what we >need from the activity or more asses move to the ‘country’ and keep >changing it until there’s none left. I just love to listen to ‘them’ >after they are overrun with deer, opossum, squirrel, skunks, ‘coon, >groundhog, coyote, mountain lion and such and their ideas of what >’should’ be done to protect ‘them’ and theirs. Poor dumb rich asses.
As an oriental whose long 3000 years of recorded history included numerous famines, any one of which often killed millions, we had learned to eat anything that even hints of protein. All parts of a pheasant (not peasant please, although that is not unknown), except perhaps the feathers and the peep, are consumed. Now that you have said that your tastes are equally catholic how many parts of the animals in your list above do you throw away? You still fussy impossibly rich and wasteful occidentals :-)
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I don’t think it’s to make fun of people that have other food choice either !!! I no that I’m going to get a BIG net and net that twisted fin bastard Shamo And have one hell of a feast
> THIS IS NOT TURTLE. > I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat > possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our > diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, > raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken > (filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a > roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are > ugly, but they taste great! > Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of > them. > Loretta
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Response:
ROTFLMAO! You guys are killing me!! : )
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is that frozen Seal or freshly clubbed????? > MMMMM! and Baby Seal fritters!!!! > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
>Fact is that wild game fed all of mankind until we learned how to domesticate certain >species.
Abel, son of Adam, domesticated animals. Men began to eat meat only after that time so mankind has always had domestic animals to eat. We have not ascended from primitive man, but they descended from more "advanced" living through disbelief in the God that created them. Even today almost all hunger comes from the same source. As one of many examples, consider India where hunger regins among the majority of the population, is totally unecessary, comes directly from false religious belief. Even in America, hunger has GREATLY increased in my lifetime and for the same underlying reasons.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You city slickers just keep poking fun at the country folk and we’ll >keep feeding your sorry asses. Well, we will as long as we get what we >need from the activity or more asses move to the ‘country’ and keep >changing it until there’s none left. I just love to listen to ‘them’ >after they are overrun with deer, opossum, squirrel, skunks, ‘coon, >groundhog, coyote, mountain lion and such and their ideas of what >’should’ be done to protect ‘them’ and theirs. Poor dumb rich asses. > As an oriental whose long 3000 years of recorded history included > numerous famines, any one of which often killed millions, we had > learned to eat anything that even hints of protein. All parts of a > pheasant (not peasant please, although that is not unknown), except > perhaps the feathers and the peep, are consumed. Now that you have > said that your tastes are equally catholic how many parts of the > animals in your list above do you throw away? You still fussy > impossibly rich and wasteful occidentals :-)
My family has been here since about the late 1600s after coming from Germany. They ate what they killed or grew and developed tastes for certain of the abundance of possible foodstuffs. IOWs they were able to be somewhat picky. I was able to turn up my nose at pickled pigs feet, ears, souse, and other certain things made from animals. Well as long as Dad wasn’t around but then I learned to frowup and he gave up eventually! But when it comes to deer, pheasant, rabbits etc., there’s next to nothing left but hide and bones and some hides are used for other things. I had saved some pheasant feathers for many years but they got gone… Sorry for your family’s trials and such.
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> >Fact is that wild game fed all of mankind until we learned how to domesticate certain >species. > Abel, son of Adam, domesticated animals. Men began to eat meat only after > that time so mankind has always had domestic animals to eat.
Sorry I don’t agree. Do you know anything about indigeneous peoples other than they are thought of as illiterate ungodly savages by most Christians? Should they have the same god you or I do? Or do you believe they do but missionaries just have to ‘remind’ them by stripping them of everything they’ve always known? Personally I wish they were still canibals and there were more of them. There would be millions more so called savages if it weren’t for Christian Crusaders their supporters and Popes that looked the other way. It always amazes me how Christians can put down the members of other religions of the world that outnumber them by a few billion and have held their beliefs to be true much longer. I also think that type of belief has caused more harm to mankind than good and they should all be ashamed. > We have not ascended from primitive man, but they descended from more > "advanced" living through disbelief in the God that created them. Even > today almost all hunger comes from the same source. As one of many > examples, consider India where hunger regins among the majority of the > population, is totally unecessary, comes directly from false religious > belief.
False? Sorry I don’t agree with any religion being labled "false" by any other religion or religious person or group. IMO if one is false they all are. > Even in America, hunger has GREATLY increased in my lifetime and for the > same underlying reasons.
Because of "false" religions or "advanced living"? I assume the advances. I personally think we have gotten too far away from nature for our own good and have too many "advances" that we really can’t handle well. But I can’t agree that hunger has grown in the US. Or if it has, for the reason you’ve presented.
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It’s tasty, but doesn’t come close to bald eagle. Mmmmmmmm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My favorite is fried spotted owl…..mmmmm spotted owl…. > THIS IS NOT TURTLE. > I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat > possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our > diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, > raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken > (filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a > roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are > ugly, but they taste great! > Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of > them. > Loretta >Path: >lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu
!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!vixen .cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!not-for-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Newsgroups: alt.home.repair >Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington >Lines: 20 >References: >NNTP-Posting-Host: tarantula.bio.indiana.edu >X-Trace: wilson.uits.indiana.edu 1021409728 26494 129.79.224.70 (14 May 2002 >20:55:28 GMT) >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
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In 1948, my Dad cooked a possum for the entire Family & several guests. It was so bad, none of us could eat it. It looked & tasted like a big fat, greasy rat. He said later that he had forgotten to remove the musk-gland. I don’t know if they even have one or not. I would have to be starving before I’d try another one. Squirrel & Rabbits are very tasty.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> THIS IS NOT TURTLE. > I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat > possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our > diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, > raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken > (filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a > roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are > ugly, but they taste great! > Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of > them. > Loretta
Response:
My favorite is fried spotted owl…..mmmmm spotted owl….
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> THIS IS NOT TURTLE. > I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat > possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our > diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, > raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken > (filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a > roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are > ugly, but they taste great! > Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of > them. > Loretta
Response:
YEEEE-HAAAAW!!!! I just came from a vacation touring historic Jamestown, and heard stories from the historic guides about how those first settlers had to eat mice to survive. You can eat possum, squirrels and other would-be-road-kill if you want, but I’d have to be starving first.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> THIS IS NOT TURTLE. > I don’ think it is right that you people make fun of others who eat > possums and squirrels. For many of us, it is a necessary supplement to our > diets. We grow our own organic vegetables and the stray squirrel, possum, > raccoon, or rabbit adds tasty protein to our meals. Why is a chicken > (filthy animal) or pig okay to eat and not a possum? Have you ever eaten a > roasted possum with garlic and butter? It is very delicious. Sure they are > ugly, but they taste great! > Give it a try sometime. Enjoy all of God’s creatures, not just some of > them. > Loretta
Response:
Question:
> What references do you use to support this theory???????
dr s I’m not sure if you’re posing the question to me and if so, whether you should. The term was used by an individual at nyscof and by their statements, they are more familiar with dental literature than I am. The theory referred to the link between diet and good teeth. I read Mr. Price’s book, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration," and I think it demonstrates the theory well. My personal experience (as related in the original message above), my observation and other reading also support it. rjn
Response:
Test — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What references do you use to support this theory??????? >dr s >I’m not sure if you’re posing the question to me and if so, whether >you should. The term was used by an individual at nyscof and by their >statements, they are more familiar with dental literature than I am. >The theory referred to the link between diet and good teeth. >I read Mr. Price’s book, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration," and I >think it demonstrates the theory well. My personal experience (as >related in the original message above), my observation and other >reading also support it. >rjn
Response:
What references do you use to support this theory??????? — Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan USA This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will effect your health.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dr. Weston Price proved this theory in his book, "Nutrition and > Physical Degeneration," first published in 1939. >> > Not surprisingly, the only scientific link between tooth decay is > poverty. Poverty is also linked to poor nutrition, poor living > conditions, inability to be treated for cavities until they get bad > enough to be accepted in an emergency room and higher rates of most > diseases that are tracked and earlier mortality. >nyscof > I enjoyed reading your excellent message and I’m glad if my report was > a spring board for your posting the valuable information. I agree > that avoiding or reducing the use of sodium fluouride would be > beneficial. I read that the two principle sources are the aluminum > industry and pollution stack scrubbers! The later was described in a > letter by Gary O. Pittman to congressmen and senators and published in > "The Suncoast Eco Report," Vol 9 #2 & #3, under the title "Dangers of > Fluoridating Drinking Water with fluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6)/ sodium > fluorosilicate (Na2SiF6)." Mr. Pittman identified his last position > as supervising a portion of the evaporation and purification processes > at the Occidental Chemical Corporation, Swift Creek Chemical Complex. > Weston Price is a favorite author. My story might surprise the > average reader but it won’t sound unusual to those who read his book. > I enjoy the articles at the site his work inspired, > http://www.price-pottenger.org. > When considering how the more limited budgets of those people with > lower incomes contributes to dental problems, more nutritious food > doesn’t have to cost that much more. Organic whole grains and legumes > cost about $1 a pound. Locally grown vegetables are usually priced > reasonably and they can even be grown in the back yard and sometimes > pots. It’s more a problem of people lacking knowledge about what > types of foods offer the best payoff in better health and well being, > as there’s a lot of misinformation. Availability also can be a > problem. Not only are whole food stores absent from most low income > neighborhoods, full service groceries often are, too, leaving the > residents to choose at the corner Mom and Pop between different types > of bagged chips and canned goods. > I didn’t give many details about the diet and lifestyle I follow but I > take steps beyond the norm to get as much nutrition as possible from > food. It turns out to be similar to the traditional diets WP > described (with more variety); based on whole grains with seasonal, > locally grown vegetables. There’s a relatively small amount of animal > products and it differs in that I don’t use much dairy. I try to get > food as fresh as possible. People whose food intake doesn’t offer as > much might not avoid as well as I did the problems with the dental > situation I described. > I also found, as numerous sources said I would, that a healthy diet > and lifestyle results in achieving ideal weight. I’ve posted health > and nutrition messages at the Google site, many of which recommend the > practices as an effective weight loss method. To the interested or > curious, I would recommend reading "Forsake calorie arithmetic…" > Thanks for the site addresses, I’ve marked them and plan to check them > periodically. > rjn
Response:
Very interesting post. While we are not dentists, we do read the dental literature more often than most practicing dentists do. The link between diet and good teeth is not a new one – just not one that’s not promoted conspicuously by organized dentistry who favors fluoride as the preventive regimen of choice along with "don’t eat sugar." Dr. Weston Price proved this theory in his book, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration," first published in 1939. The American Dental Association actually sent out a news release that indicates "Good dental health begins in the womb." and lists the nutrients a Mom needs to absorb in sufficient amounts to improve the quality of her offspring’s health. Of course, if the Mom doesn’t eat properly, one could assume her child could be born with weak teeth that leads to "early childhood caries," Instead of recommending a better diet for these children, organized dentistry spends millions of dollars to encourage more fluoride. By the way there is no deficiency state for fluoride. Not surprisingly, the only scientific link between tooth decay is poverty. Poverty is also linked to poor nutrition, poor living conditions, inability to be treated for cavities until they get bad enough to be accepted in an emergency room and higher rates of most diseases that are tracked and earlier mortality. It’s common sense that a healthy diet will improve most ill health conditions. Instead dental researchers take millions from the government to study fluoride then use the poor with the highest rates of decay as their guinea pigs, when what these children need is nourishing food. Also in the Surgeon Generals Oral Health Report which is two or three hundred pages long only one page is devoted to nutrition. But it is there – even if it is ignored by most dentists. His conclusion that tooth decay is epidemic in the US poor and minority populations is followed with the intent to fluoridate even more of us – even though those populations with highest rates of decay mostly already live in fluoridated communities. Sugar is the obvious enemy of teeth. But low intakes of teeth building nutrients like, calcium, magnesium, boron Vitamin A and C and others is really at the root of the problem. Here’s a website by a dentist who studied the skulls of early man and found them decay free and how modern processed food diet is linked to tooth decay – not putting a baby to sleep with a bottle or breastfeeding them to sleep which has been done forever with no adverse effects until the modern diet is introduced into the equation. http://www.brianpalmerdds.com/bfeed_caries.htm My point is there is a direct correlation between diet and tooth decay that has been ingored in favor of fluoride. Many dentists on this list will show off their "one-liners" to their peers in response to this post. But it’s here for your benefit and those of lurkers who actually learn on the internet and don’t rely on their dentists and physicians for all their health information. New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Diet and lifestyle, dental hygiene and dental treatment all affect > dental health; there would be disagreement over how much impact each > has. I’ll relate in the form of a rough chronology my personal > experience with those factors and my deductions and opinions will be > at the end. I’ll include numerous details for greater clarity at the > expense of increasing the length of the message.
Response:
> Dr. Weston Price proved this theory in his book, "Nutrition and > Physical Degeneration," first published in 1939. > > Not surprisingly, the only scientific link between tooth decay is > poverty. Poverty is also linked to poor nutrition, poor living > conditions, inability to be treated for cavities until they get bad > enough to be accepted in an emergency room and higher rates of most > diseases that are tracked and earlier mortality. >nyscof
I enjoyed reading your excellent message and I’m glad if my report was a spring board for your posting the valuable information. I agree that avoiding or reducing the use of sodium fluouride would be beneficial. I read that the two principle sources are the aluminum industry and pollution stack scrubbers! The later was described in a letter by Gary O. Pittman to congressmen and senators and published in "The Suncoast Eco Report," Vol 9 #2 & #3, under the title "Dangers of Fluoridating Drinking Water with fluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6)/ sodium fluorosilicate (Na2SiF6)." Mr. Pittman identified his last position as supervising a portion of the evaporation and purification processes at the Occidental Chemical Corporation, Swift Creek Chemical Complex. Weston Price is a favorite author. My story might surprise the average reader but it won’t sound unusual to those who read his book. I enjoy the articles at the site his work inspired, http://www.price-pottenger.org. When considering how the more limited budgets of those people with lower incomes contributes to dental problems, more nutritious food doesn’t have to cost that much more. Organic whole grains and legumes cost about $1 a pound. Locally grown vegetables are usually priced reasonably and they can even be grown in the back yard and sometimes pots. It’s more a problem of people lacking knowledge about what types of foods offer the best payoff in better health and well being, as there’s a lot of misinformation. Availability also can be a problem. Not only are whole food stores absent from most low income neighborhoods, full service groceries often are, too, leaving the residents to choose at the corner Mom and Pop between different types of bagged chips and canned goods. I didn’t give many details about the diet and lifestyle I follow but I take steps beyond the norm to get as much nutrition as possible from food. It turns out to be similar to the traditional diets WP described (with more variety); based on whole grains with seasonal, locally grown vegetables. There’s a relatively small amount of animal products and it differs in that I don’t use much dairy. I try to get food as fresh as possible. People whose food intake doesn’t offer as much might not avoid as well as I did the problems with the dental situation I described. I also found, as numerous sources said I would, that a healthy diet and lifestyle results in achieving ideal weight. I’ve posted health and nutrition messages at the Google site, many of which recommend the practices as an effective weight loss method. To the interested or curious, I would recommend reading "Forsake calorie arithmetic…" Thanks for the site addresses, I’ve marked them and plan to check them periodically. rjn
Response:
> Good nutrition is important head to toe, unfortunately, it’s just not > reality.
finally, i agree with you Chas…an ideal diet may very well preclude a need for anti-cavity measures such as sealants or fluoride, but as you so well state "it’s just not reality". T
Response:
> Is there any dentist out there who will ‘fess up and admit he/she
"ignores" nutrition? > Steve
Mine never said a word before, they only thing he ever mentioned about what goes in my mouth is that "if you have to chew gum, make sure it’s sugarless" (like anyone can hack THAT shit for more than 13 seconds!) Nutrition is not just teeth, it’s whole body, and I believe after maturation, the teeth actually benefit very little from balanced nutrition, (albeit some). It isn’t easy to keep a body on a balanced diet with all the proper foods and liquids, day in and day out, it’s just too expensive to do so (your government has seen to that!). I remember a study done by some dietary association that (and this was several years ago, imagine what it is today) the average family of 5 would have to spend upwards of 275.00 per week to remain on a daily balanced nutritional diet. Simply put, then, even moreso today, a good percentage of the population just can’t afford that. Back then, that was more than what the weekly minimum wage is today! Good nutrition is important head to toe, unfortunately, it’s just not reality.
Response:
Is there any dentist out there who will ‘fess up and admit he/she "ignores" nutrition? Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Very interesting post. While we are not dentists, we do read the > dental literature more often than most practicing dentists do. The > link between diet and good teeth is not a new one – just not one > that’s not promoted conspicuously by organized dentistry who favors > fluoride as the preventive regimen of choice along with "don’t eat > sugar." > Dr. Weston Price proved this theory in his book, "Nutrition and > Physical Degeneration," first published in 1939. > The American Dental Association actually sent out a news release that > indicates "Good dental health begins in the womb." and lists the > nutrients a Mom needs to absorb in sufficient amounts to improve the > quality of her offspring’s health. > Of course, if the Mom doesn’t eat properly, one could assume her child > could be born with weak teeth that leads to "early childhood caries," > Instead of recommending a better diet for these children, organized > dentistry spends millions of dollars to encourage more fluoride. By > the way there is no deficiency state for fluoride. > Not surprisingly, the only scientific link between tooth decay is > poverty. Poverty is also linked to poor nutrition, poor living > conditions, inability to be treated for cavities until they get bad > enough to be accepted in an emergency room and higher rates of most > diseases that are tracked and earlier mortality. > It’s common sense that a healthy diet will improve most ill health > conditions. Instead dental researchers take millions from the > government to study fluoride then use the poor with the highest rates > of decay as their guinea pigs, when what these children need is > nourishing food. > Also in the Surgeon Generals Oral Health Report which is two or three > hundred pages long only one page is devoted to nutrition. But it is > there – even if it is ignored by most dentists. His conclusion that > tooth decay is epidemic in the US poor and minority populations is > followed with the intent to fluoridate even more of us – even though > those populations with highest rates of decay mostly already live in > fluoridated communities. > Sugar is the obvious enemy of teeth. But low intakes of teeth building > nutrients like, calcium, magnesium, boron Vitamin A and C and others > is really at the root of the problem. > Here’s a website by a dentist who studied the skulls of early man and > found them decay free and how modern processed food diet is linked to > tooth decay – not > putting a baby to sleep with a bottle or breastfeeding them to sleep > which has been done forever with no adverse effects until the modern > diet is introduced into the equation. > http://www.brianpalmerdds.com/bfeed_caries.htm > My point is there is a direct correlation between diet and tooth decay > that has been ingored in favor of fluoride. Many dentists on this list > will show off their "one-liners" to their peers in response to this > post. But it’s here for your benefit and those of lurkers who actually > learn on the internet and don’t rely on their dentists and physicians > for all their health information. > New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation > http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof > Diet and lifestyle, dental hygiene and dental treatment all affect > dental health; there would be disagreement over how much impact each > has. I’ll relate in the form of a rough chronology my personal > experience with those factors and my deductions and opinions will be > at the end. I’ll include numerous details for greater clarity at the > expense of increasing the length of the message.
Response:
Diet and lifestyle, dental hygiene and dental treatment all affect dental health; there would be disagreement over how much impact each has. I’ll relate in the form of a rough chronology my personal experience with those factors and my deductions and opinions will be at the end. I’ll include numerous details for greater clarity at the expense of increasing the length of the message. As a child and adolescent growing up in the 50’s and 60’s, I followed (largely as a result of decisions made by others) what was a relatively conscientious version of standard American diet and lifestyle of the time. The diet included a large portion of animal products and a significant amount of refined and processed foods including refined sweeteners. There was very little in the way of whole grains. By my current thinking, it was low in B vitamins, C, E and probably some minerals. I didn’t really get the hang of teeth cleaning as a child and there wasn’t as much of an emphasis then on flossing as developed later so the level of dental hygiene I provided myself was fair at best. I had a significant number of cavities. When I got into my early teens, our family dentist recommended some work. This included about three extractions, two gold crowns on the lower molars in the far back; two lower molars that had the inner third drill away and replaced with amalgam, smaller amounts of amalgam on the inside of the upper molars and some smaller fillings. When I last saw a dentist in my late teens, he said there were a number of cavities but that filling them could be done later. I haven’t had any dental treatment in the intervening thirty years. (Dental work is expensive and I’ve never been awash in funds). I changed my diet in my late teens in the direction of more natural foods. The beliefs and the strength which I put them into practice varied from one time to another. In my early twenties, after some years of carelessness, I started brushing my teeth better and more regularly. This gave me the opportunity to see the cavities, plainly visible as dots except for one that could be seen as a small hole. In my mid twenties, I noticed that the lower half of my lower gums had become darker and took on a more slippery, slimy appearance. There was a obvious line of demarcation from left to right. Some time after this, the cavities were no longer visible. In my early 30’s, the lower gums were becoming less thick from front to back. This trend continued; after time, the area acquired an indented look and the upper portion started to disappear or shrink downward. In my late thirties, the outer portions of the lower molars that had the most tooth material drilled away started breaking off, a quarter of a tooth at a time. This continued until only a little of the top of each tooth remained; the rest of the two teeth and the amalgam are gone. This point was reached about two years ago with the right one and a few months ago for the one on the left. The top of the right crown wore through about three years ago. In the past five years, I had the teeth completely cleaned twice by dental hygienists at a local community college. They said the teeth were a little loose and I was able to manipulate them. They told me some gum "pockets" were pronounced and recommended an interdental brush, which works well to completely remove food particles. I started flossing daily. About five years ago, I began making significant changes in my diet and lifestyle in the direction of more natural and nutritious food. I stopped using toothpaste about three years ago and use instead water to which a half teaspoon each of baking soda and salt are added to a quart. Despite a good deal of concern on my part about having so much underlying tooth surface exposed, there really wasn’t much trouble. There was sensitivity as each part was lost but they became less tender as time passed. I have to stay away from stronger acids, such as citrus. Significant amounts of refined sweeteners might bother me but I don’t eat foods that contain them. Sweet foods such as raisins or bananas don’t cause a problem though undiluted honey has. The right molar gradually toughened up and tolerates a lot of pressure and stress. The left accepts more as time passes. I think I can reasonably hope that it will follow the same course as the right one. The color of the teeth under the amalgam was a brown/black shortly after it fell out. The one on the right has since lightened up and completely regained a regular tooth color. It looks about as good as a tooth with the top missing can look. I expect the left one to reach the same point. Regarding the gums, since the shrinkage is gradual, it’s hard to say whether the disappearance of the lower gums is continuing. The pace had seemed to pick up as amalgam became newly exposed but my guess is that now it has slowed quite a bit or perhaps even stopped. Overall, I would say my teeth are well rooted and strong. I can eat some pretty hard stuff. There is some stain; when it becomes more noticeable, I brush with a baking soda paste. What surprised me, because it conflicted with what I had been led to expect, were:
Question:
Hello Gary and all;
… > I’m not the first or only one to mention water heaters and metals
Oh? So I take it that you’re a proponent of safety in numbers, as opposed to safety in data and information? Ten folks saw Elvis last week. I guess then that they must be right, and he’s still alive. Is that what you’re trying to say? > added to the water. You disagreed with my 1+ ppm of copper,
I did not. You asserted that this was "hazardous", I found factual support that it was not–which you ignored. … > most part. Also that the EPA establishes an action level of 1.3 > ppm for copper in potable water and you can try this Google
Nobody is questioning or doubting the levels assigned to the standards. *You* have asserted that using water from the hot water system for drinking or cooking is dangerous. *I* have asked you, repeatedly, for a relevant reference to substantiate your statement. It seems that you still can not provide such information. … > Legionella in water heaters: > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Legionella%2Bheaters
I’m well versed in the use of Google and other SE’s, but let’s stay on the issue. The issue wasn’t metal or Legionella in water, the issue was your unfounded assertion that they represented a far greater danger coming from the hot water system. > Another URL that might help you: > http://www.fcwa.org/water/faq.htm stating: > 14. Is it okay to use water from the hot water tap for drinking, > cooking, or making baby formula? > Hot water generally comes from a hot water heater that may contain > impurities that should not be ingested. Some of these impurities might > be metals from household plumbing that are concentrated in the Statements
that say, " *May* contain impurities…", or, "… *might* be metals …", aren’t in anyway either quantitative or definitive. They simply represent an opinion. I repeat, show me a substantiating reference! I want to learn more. > Here’s the Goggle search that turned that up, there are numerous others:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22water+heater%22+%2Bwater+quality&hl… rt=10&sa=N Lots of water heater ads…little technical information…none regarding the issue at hand. … > It took me all of maybe 10 minutes to find these so I’m sure if > you spent a bit more time you probably could find others…..
I did. It didn’t. Please help me by sending me some substantiating references for your unfounded assertion that hot water system water is bad. I’m still waiting… L8r all, Dusty > Gary > Quality Water Associates
NB: All this "Quality", and no way to prove it? Sounds kinda fishy to me…(:-)!
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Gary and all; > … > I’m not the first or only one to mention water heaters and metals > Oh? So I take it that you’re a proponent of safety in numbers, as opposed > to safety in data and information? > Ten folks saw Elvis last week. I guess then that they must be right, and > he’s still alive. Is that what you’re trying to say? > added to the water. You disagreed with my 1+ ppm of copper, > I did not. You asserted that this was "hazardous", I found factual support > that it was not–which you ignored. > … > most part. Also that the EPA establishes an action level of 1.3 > ppm for copper in potable water and you can try this Google > Nobody is questioning or doubting the levels assigned to the standards. > *You* have asserted that using water from the hot water system for drinking > or cooking is dangerous. *I* have asked you, repeatedly, for a relevant > reference to substantiate your statement. It seems that you still can not > provide such information.
You stated your opinion, I stated mine. The MCL for copper in potable water is 1.3 mg/l action level and IMO above that is harmful. You haven’t shown where it isn’t, please do. > Legionella in water heaters: > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Legionella%2Bheaters > I’m well versed in the use of Google and other SE’s, but let’s stay on the > issue. The issue wasn’t metal or Legionella in water, the issue was your > unfounded assertion that they represented a far greater danger coming from > the hot water system.
Then show me how good you are. I’ve put up a number of URLs and entire search results all pointing you in the right direction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Another URL that might help you: > http://www.fcwa.org/water/faq.htm stating: > 14. Is it okay to use water from the hot water tap for drinking, > cooking, or making baby formula? > Hot water generally comes from a hot water heater that may contain > impurities that should not be ingested. Some of these impurities might > be metals from household plumbing that are concentrated in the Statements > that say, " *May* contain impurities…", or, "… *might* be metals …", > aren’t in anyway either quantitative or definitive. They simply represent > an opinion. I repeat, show me a substantiating reference! I want to learn > more. > Here’s the Goggle search that turned that up, there are numerous others:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22water+heater%22+%2Bwater+quality&hl=en &sta > rt=10&sa=N > Lots of water heater ads…little technical information…none regarding the > issue at hand.
There were over ten pages of about ten sites per page IIRC, I found a number of sites not selling water heaters. Try again. > It took me all of maybe 10 minutes to find these so I’m sure if > you spent a bit more time you probably could find others….. > I did. It didn’t. Please help me by sending me some substantiating > references for your unfounded assertion that hot water system water is bad. > I’m still waiting…
You were given this a few days ago: http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/ag473_1.html > L8r all, > Dusty > Gary > Quality Water Associates > NB: All this "Quality", and no way to prove it? Sounds kinda fishy to > me…(:-)!
As I said before, take some of your equipment and go do a few tests. My good buddy Dave works in a lab of a large water company and he says he finds more metals in hot water than cold. I usually don’t believe much he says but… in this I don’t doubt him. Have you checked out the "copper poison" thread in alt.home.repair. yet? Or check out the "White pebbles in water supply??" thread in alt.home.repair. Here’s a quote from me and my good buddy: > Meaning he disagrees with and corrects the mis-information you spout. > Sounds like my kinda guy. 
> Yep, you could be he. He says it’s me. But he never heard of Legionella > in water heaters.
Neither had I, until you mentioned it. You never did post a viable source for your facts as I recall. > Didn’t know mg/l and ppm are basically interchangeable
Only in aqueous solutions (water) at or near 4C (~40F). Close enough for our purposes in water treatment, I agree, although technically interchanging these units *is* a scientific faux pas since they aren’t interchangeable when dealing with other solvents such as hexanes. Water is unique in that at 4C the density of water is 1 (1 ml = 1 g) so that 1 mg/L (1 L = 1000 ml) *is* equal to 1mg/1000g or 1mg/1,000,000mg thus 1 part per million (ppm). Any deviation from 4C introduces a slight error in the relationship between the two units based on the change of water’s density. > and sees nothing wrong with drinking water from a water heater or that > there may be more metals in the hot water than the cold feeding the > heater.
See, everyone can stand to learn a thing or two from this newsgroup. I consistently see higher levels of metals coming from the hot side. Of course I consistently see higher levels of metals coming from softened water too, though you fight me tooth and nail on that issue (guess that makes you like the tobacoo companies too, don’t it). Highest metal levels I’d ever seen in my 20 year career came from a softened and recirculating hot system. David Thomas Senior Analyst – LIMS Now Dusty, I deal with water quality and so does Dave. He is known to suffer selective memory though. We don’t deal with what and how much of it in that water is taken up by the body that ingests that water. If you do I’m all ears but it’s my understanding that what we drink isn’t absorbed to the same extent as what we eat although I may be wrong. Plus the vast majority of us don’t drink the minimal amount of water per day as is suggested, but if the little we do drink is worse quality than the US EPA suggests…. I think we are harming ourselves more than helping ourselves. And as you say, we’re all allowed our opinions, including you. I’m not upset yours isn’t worth anything but it seems you are. You may recall you were interested in hot water recirc systems. Part of the above should be helpful in that regard, can you identify it? Gary Quality Water Associates
Response:
> … > I don’t see you proving me wrong, only saying that I am. The URL I put > I didn’t see you proving me wrong, only saying that I am. See? I can say > that too. I contend that you can drink and cook with the hot tap water all > you want. You hold the opinion that it’s bad. You’re entitled to that > opinion, no matter how flawed the internal logic that led you to it. But > that doesn’t make you right.
I don’t recall saying you were, or are, wrong. Yes all that care too can drink and cook with all the hot water they want, I simply said IMO they shouldn’t use any of it that way. > I’ve tried to offer facts and data to support another line of reasoning, but > you seem immune to information. So be it. Without a clue or having an > understanding of what you’re parroting. it’s kinda like me trying to teach a > pig to sing. It doesn’t work, and it annoys the pig!
I don’t deal with the other stuff unless it’s in ’supposedly’ potable water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> up is to the US EPA which sets MCLs for potable water distributed by > water companies and they want 1.3 ppm(mg/l) or less of copper in that > water. You can argue with them all you want but my 1+ ppm comment came > from there. The action level for copper in potable water is 1.3 ppm. > Yeah, whatever… > My comment was directed to your statement, to wit: > Copper as an example is harmful at 1.0+ ppMillion… > This is both misleading *and* factually wrong. But hey! Don’t let any real > information dissuade you from holding this little jewel of self-widom near > and dear. Too bad that you missed the mark in both understanding and > research. A limit on something is not the same as saying that exceeding > that limit equates with that item being "harmful".
Define the thinking behind setting an MCL. IMO somewhere there will be some concern for the health of the people using the water and they don’t mean they will be healthier. Some might see that as meaning it could be harmful. > The "US EPA" (excuse me while I take a moment to shudder in awe…) did > indeed set that limit–which you blithly take as some kind of fatalistic > gospel. It is–according to them–a recommended limit for CU in drinking > water. Okay. I don’t know how they arrived at that exact figure, but I’ll > buy that. Unfortunately, you seem unable to comprehend that that doesn’t > mean that that’s the amount of CU that comes out of a water heater.
Damn! All I did was make a comment about not drinking hot water and mentioned an example of copper. Dissimilar metal corrosion on the water line connections to an electric heater alone is enough source for 1+ ppm of copper. The vast majority of water heaters are elcetric. Most potable water plumbing in this country is made of copper. Many municipal water systems have acidic water. You obviously don’t know much about water quality issues, the MCL used to establish potability etc.. Maybe that’s why all the dancing to other subjects. > FWIW; their value squares pretty well with the USDA which recommends a > minimum level of dietary copper of 1-3mg/day. But they do go on to say > that this value is only approximate, since the actual amount of dietary > copper absorbed is affected by other minerals in one’s diet as well. But I > already mentioned that…and it didn’t seem to matter to your own > preconcieved notion of what’s right–or not…
Here I don’t deal with USDA anything am I’m not debating what the EPA says does or how they arrive here or there or why. > As a frame of reference for how I feel about anything coming out of the EPA, > please bear in mind that the "US EPA" are the self-same folks that are still > _mandating_ carcinogenic MTBE’s in our gasoline–even in the face of the > evidence that it’s now befouled our ground water. And yes. I can detect > that too. I make, program, and test devices that can detect materials (on a > good day) down to the ppt (parts/trillion) range…
Politically we’d be like twins. Good for you, go test some heated water from copper supply line fed electric water heaters. Or Legionella. > To get a better understanding of the scale of these measurements; use > seconds. One part per million, is one second out of just over 11 days. One > part per billion, is one second out of just over 30 years. One part per > trillion, is one second out of over 301 centuries. > All of our red-herrings aside, CU in water from a HWT is a non-issue. > You’re not going to get CU levels of 1.3ppm out of the typical water > heater–no matter what you do to it–unless it was already in the water > before it went in…
Ok, I’ll take your word for it. At least until you get back to me with your test results. But tell me, with 6.xx ppm copper at the kitchen sink cold side (actual case) and the mix of other things (metals especially) that you said can be found in hot water from a water heater and it’s associated plumbing, would you support others drinking and cooking with the hot water in that house? How about your family and kids? If so, based on your arguements here, I think you’re stupid, but I’ll be the first to defend your freedom to be as stupid as you care to be. Gary Quality Water Associates – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dusty > Precision Instrumentation Design > Gary > Quality Water Associates
Response:
> Good morning, Gary and all; > … > I test water and sell and service residential and commercial water > treatment equipment. 99% of my business is on private well water. Those > So this makes you a self-defined expert on the absorption of metals in > water? Kinda like a baker calling himself an expert on the tractors used in > wheat farming because he peddles products that use flour…
You might want to check out the thread "copper poison" over in the alt.home.repair newsgroup. Gary Quality Water Associates – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Later all, > Dusty Bleher > San Jose, Ca.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good morning, Gary and all; > … > I test water and sell and service residential and commercial water > treatment equipment. 99% of my business is on private well water. Those > So this makes you a self-defined expert on the absorption of metals in > water? Kinda like a baker calling himself an expert on the tractors used in > wheat farming because he peddles products that use flour… > … > the way it should be). Although some is under EPA and state regs. So I > use the US EPA MCLs to establish at least an idea of what someone thinks > the water quality should be. Now I don’t agree with the EPA or other > This has absolutely *nothing* to do with EPA, MCL’s, or anything else! This > query and the flurry of posts previous have *only* to do with your specious > assertion on the quantity of metal in water as it relates to the "stagnant" > water in home hot water systems. > … > there. I don’t say the MCLs are right or wrong, I simply say what they > are, which is more or less what I did in this thread by using copper as > Nobody cares what you think about the MCL’s! You’re hardly in the position > nor possess the knowledge or equipment to determine anything along that > line. The only relevant question here is the source of your assertion > regarding the amount of dissolved metals present in the water of home water > systems. > … > question or argue or debate, I repeat the info. I also don’t play doctor > Yes! That seems to be the crux of the matter. "I repeat the info…". A > talking parrot can do the same, but that doesn’t make the parrot > knowledgeable in language or add any salient relevance to what it says. > The question continues to be: Give me a source for your assertion that hot > water systems contain a more hazardous level of dissolved metals, as opposed > to the cold water system that feeds it. A question, it would seem, that > you’ve so far artfully ducked. > … > here than I have already which is to say I believe ingesting water from > the typical water heater is not a good idea. I’ll also say that I have > Ah, ha! And here we have it in black and white. To wit: "… I believe > …". Great! This whole discussion is about what you believe. You > realize, of course, that this lumps you in with those that "believe" that > the earth is flat; that Elvis is still alive; and that Islam is a religion > of tolerant, peace-loving saints. > never seen or heard anyone say it is a good thing and ya oughta use it > all the time. That kinda tells me that there might be something in it > So what you’re telling us is that the constant repetition of "an old wives > tale" constitutes proof that the tale is valid since no one is bothering to > refute it. Is that about the sum of your position in this matter? > I don’t know what’s happening these days. I guess I don’t understand some > of the very advanced things that you do and "know". It’s probably because I > come from the "old school". I want and will actively seek knowledge, data, > and information. I’ve learned how to learn and how to exercise a modicum of > critical thinking skills. I’m not one of the sheeple that infest our > attention and landscape these days. When I want an opinion, I’ll form one! > I don’t need or want one from you or anyone else. > I am, however, always mindful that I don’t know it all, and am *always* > willing to learn something new–even from you (especially from you–as you > claim to be knowledgeable in this field). Unfortunately, I don’t consider > regurgitated opinion equivalent to a summation of factual knowledge. And so > far, despite giving you many opportunities to draw upon that seemingly > infinite reservoir of rhetoric that serves you as knowledge, I’ve been > unrequited in that pursuit. > that we don’t need and will be better off without. > I don’t need someone to tell me what I’d be better off with or without. I > can do that quite well for myself, thank you. I can read. I can > understand. I can think. Unlike many, I’m able to come to a conclusion > without help. > As far as data for the copper MCL. I’m sure that if you cared to, you > could find the EPA web site and their data to back up their MCL. > Come on, Gary. What are you? Some kinda "johnny one-note"? We’ve been > across this little detail enough times so that even you should be starting > to get the drift. > Our discussion has nothing to do with MCL’s, and everything to do with your > inability to substantiate your assertion on the levels of metal–copper in > this case–in cold vs. hot home water systems… When are you going to get > around to enlightening us? > Gary > Quality Water Associates > Do you guys have a website or something? I’d be very interested in finding > out more about what you and your company do. I wasn’t able to find "Quality > Water Associates" anywhere–but that’s probably just because I’m a clueless > nitwit… > Later all, > Dusty Bleher > San Jose, Ca.
I’m not the first or only one to mention water heaters and metals added to the water. You disagreed with my 1+ ppm of copper, the mg/l and ppm thingy, Legionella in water heaters and other comments. We should know now that mg/l and ppm are considered the same for the most part. Also that the EPA establishes an action level of 1.3 ppm for copper in potable water and you can try this Google search for Legionella in water heaters: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Legionella%2Bheaters Another URL that might help you: http://www.fcwa.org/water/faq.htm stating: 14. Is it okay to use water from the hot water tap for drinking, cooking, or making baby formula? Hot water generally comes from a hot water heater that may contain impurities that should not be ingested. Some of these impurities might be metals from household plumbing that are concentrated in the heating process. Additionally, these impurities from the household plumbing dissolve more rapidly in hot water than cold water causing the amount of impurities to be higher in hot water. Here’s the Goggle search that turned that up, there are numerous others: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22water+heater%22+%2Bwater+quality&hl=en &start=10&sa=N watch the word wrap there^ It took me all of maybe 10 minutes to find these so I’m sure if you spent a bit more time you probably could find others….. Enjoy. Gary Quality Water Associates
Response:
Good morning, Gary and all;
… > I test water and sell and service residential and commercial water > treatment equipment. 99% of my business is on private well water. Those
So this makes you a self-defined expert on the absorption of metals in water? Kinda like a baker calling himself an expert on the tractors used in wheat farming because he peddles products that use flour… … > the way it should be). Although some is under EPA and state regs. So I > use the US EPA MCLs to establish at least an idea of what someone thinks > the water quality should be. Now I don’t agree with the EPA or other
This has absolutely *nothing* to do with EPA, MCL’s, or anything else! This query and the flurry of posts previous have *only* to do with your specious assertion on the quantity of metal in water as it relates to the "stagnant" water in home hot water systems. … > there. I don’t say the MCLs are right or wrong, I simply say what they > are, which is more or less what I did in this thread by using copper as
Nobody cares what you think about the MCL’s! You’re hardly in the position nor possess the knowledge or equipment to determine anything along that line. The only relevant question here is the source of your assertion regarding the amount of dissolved metals present in the water of home water systems. … > question or argue or debate, I repeat the info. I also don’t play doctor
Yes! That seems to be the crux of the matter. "I repeat the info…". A talking parrot can do the same, but that doesn’t make the parrot knowledgeable in language or add any salient relevance to what it says. The question continues to be: Give me a source for your assertion that hot water systems contain a more hazardous level of dissolved metals, as opposed to the cold water system that feeds it. A question, it would seem, that you’ve so far artfully ducked. … > here than I have already which is to say I believe ingesting water from > the typical water heater is not a good idea. I’ll also say that I have
Ah, ha! And here we have it in black and white. To wit: "… I believe …". Great! This whole discussion is about what you believe. You realize, of course, that this lumps you in with those that "believe" that the earth is flat; that Elvis is still alive; and that Islam is a religion of tolerant, peace-loving saints. > never seen or heard anyone say it is a good thing and ya oughta use it > all the time. That kinda tells me that there might be something in it
So what you’re telling us is that the constant repetition of "an old wives tale" constitutes proof that the tale is valid since no one is bothering to refute it. Is that about the sum of your position in this matter? I don’t know what’s happening these days. I guess I don’t understand some of the very advanced things that you do and "know". It’s probably because I come from the "old school". I want and will actively seek knowledge, data, and information. I’ve learned how to learn and how to exercise a modicum of critical thinking skills. I’m not one of the sheeple that infest our attention and landscape these days. When I want an opinion, I’ll form one! I don’t need or want one from you or anyone else. I am, however, always mindful that I don’t know it all, and am *always* willing to learn something new–even from you (especially from you–as you claim to be knowledgeable in this field). Unfortunately, I don’t consider regurgitated opinion equivalent to a summation of factual knowledge. And so far, despite giving you many opportunities to draw upon that seemingly infinite reservoir of rhetoric that serves you as knowledge, I’ve been unrequited in that pursuit. > that we don’t need and will be better off without.
I don’t need someone to tell me what I’d be better off with or without. I can do that quite well for myself, thank you. I can read. I can understand. I can think. Unlike many, I’m able to come to a conclusion without help. > As far as data for the copper MCL. I’m sure that if you cared to, you > could find the EPA web site and their data to back up their MCL.
Come on, Gary. What are you? Some kinda "johnny one-note"? We’ve been across this little detail enough times so that even you should be starting to get the drift. Our discussion has nothing to do with MCL’s, and everything to do with your inability to substantiate your assertion on the levels of metal–copper in this case–in cold vs. hot home water systems… When are you going to get around to enlightening us? > Gary > Quality Water Associates
Do you guys have a website or something? I’d be very interested in finding out more about what you and your company do. I wasn’t able to find "Quality Water Associates" anywhere–but that’s probably just because I’m a clueless nitwit… Later all, Dusty Bleher San Jose, Ca.
Response:
It’s clear that your mind is made up, and not likely to be swayed with data and facts. So be it. But just for grins, I was hoping you would be so kind as to provide a reference for your otherwise unfounded position. I’d asked for one before, but it seems that you just couldn’t come up with one. I’d like to see some data or studies that support your position. And by data, I mean numbers and information about studies, not statements that begin with, "I believe that…", or, "I think that …". Who knows, you might just have a point, and I’ll have to reasses my position. Unlike this with a dogmatic approach to information about things, I can be educated, trained, and convinced to upgrade my "opinions"… Dusty …
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s clear that your mind is made up, and not likely to be swayed with data > and facts. So be it. > But just for grins, I was hoping you would be so kind as to provide a > reference for your otherwise unfounded position. I’d asked for one before, > but it seems that you just couldn’t come up with one. I’d like to see some > data or studies that support your position. And by data, I mean numbers and > information about studies, not statements that begin with, "I believe > that…", or, "I think that …". > Who knows, you might just have a point, and I’ll have to reasses my > position. Unlike this with a dogmatic approach to information about things, > I can be educated, trained, and convinced to upgrade my "opinions"… > Dusty
I test water and sell and service residential and commercial water treatment equipment. 99% of my business is on private well water. Those folks are their own water company because there are no federal, state or local regulations governing their water quality (and personally that’s the way it should be). Although some is under EPA and state regs. So I use the US EPA MCLs to establish at least an idea of what someone thinks the water quality should be. Now I don’t agree with the EPA or other guvmint agencies in many instances but…. it’s not my call. I peddle the info to the people and they tell me their thoughts and we go from there. I don’t say the MCLs are right or wrong, I simply say what they are, which is more or less what I did in this thread by using copper as an example. Now I know that the EPA says if the MCL is exceeded it’s harmful to those ‘city’ water folks that ingest the water. I don’t question or argue or debate, I repeat the info. I also don’t play doctor as to whether the MCL is right or wrong. So I won’t be doing any more here than I have already which is to say I believe ingesting water from the typical water heater is not a good idea. I’ll also say that I have never seen or heard anyone say it is a good thing and ya oughta use it all the time. That kinda tells me that there might be something in it that we don’t need and will be better off without. As far as data for the copper MCL. I’m sure that if you cared to, you could find the EPA web site and their data to back up their MCL. Gary Quality Water Associates
Response:
… > I don’t see you proving me wrong, only saying that I am. The URL I put
I didn’t see you proving me wrong, only saying that I am. See? I can say that too. I contend that you can drink and cook with the hot tap water all you want. You hold the opinion that it’s bad. You’re entitled to that opinion, no matter how flawed the internal logic that led you to it. But that doesn’t make you right. I’ve tried to offer facts and data to support another line of reasoning, but you seem immune to information. So be it. Without a clue or having an understanding of what you’re parroting. it’s kinda like me trying to teach a pig to sing. It doesn’t work, and it annoys the pig! > up is to the US EPA which sets MCLs for potable water distributed by > water companies and they want 1.3 ppm(mg/l) or less of copper in that > water. You can argue with them all you want but my 1+ ppm comment came > from there. The action level for copper in potable water is 1.3 ppm.
Yeah, whatever… My comment was directed to your statement, to wit: > Copper as an example is harmful at 1.0+ ppMillion…
This is both misleading *and* factually wrong. But hey! Don’t let any real information dissuade you from holding this little jewel of self-widom near and dear. Too bad that you missed the mark in both understanding and research. A limit on something is not the same as saying that exceeding that limit equates with that item being "harmful". The "US EPA" (excuse me while I take a moment to shudder in awe…) did indeed set that limit–which you blithly take as some kind of fatalistic gospel. It is–according to them–a recommended limit for CU in drinking water. Okay. I don’t know how they arrived at that exact figure, but I’ll buy that. Unfortunately, you seem unable to comprehend that that doesn’t mean that that’s the amount of CU that comes out of a water heater. FWIW; their value squares pretty well with the USDA which recommends a minimum level of dietary copper of 1-3mg/day. But they do go on to say that this value is only approximate, since the actual amount of dietary copper absorbed is affected by other minerals in one’s diet as well. But I already mentioned that…and it didn’t seem to matter to your own preconcieved notion of what’s right–or not… As a frame of reference for how I feel about anything coming out of the EPA, please bear in mind that the "US EPA" are the self-same folks that are still _mandating_ carcinogenic MTBE’s in our gasoline–even in the face of the evidence that it’s now befouled our ground water. And yes. I can detect that too. I make, program, and test devices that can detect materials (on a good day) down to the ppt (parts/trillion) range… To get a better understanding of the scale of these measurements; use seconds. One part per million, is one second out of just over 11 days. One part per billion, is one second out of just over 30 years. One part per trillion, is one second out of over 301 centuries. All of our red-herrings aside, CU in water from a HWT is a non-issue. You’re not going to get CU levels of 1.3ppm out of the typical water heater–no matter what you do to it–unless it was already in the water before it went in… Dusty Precision Instrumentation Design – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gary > Quality Water Associates
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good day all; > … > Gary, I noted with some amusement that you didn’t provide any supporting > information for your assertion that even 1ppm of CU in water "is dangerous". > > water. Each time you use an amount of hot water equal to the contents > > of your HWT, any residual copper is going to be halved. > Actually a heater usually does not get fully flushed (or anywhere close) > except when it’s being replaced and the ratio of stagnant water to > ‘fresh’ is the size of the heater to one; 40:1, 50:1 etc.. Taps on the > other hand are constantly being fully flushed, including the feed to the > water heater. > So what! The water is constantly being replaced and mixed. Over time all > water will be exchanged. Calling un-used HWT water "stagnant" is a bit like > calling milk still in the bottle, un-spilled.
I guess we should disregard the use by date too. > … > Bacteria in water heaters is quite common, including Legionella and > thrive in the hot environment. They don’t in the cold lines. > Say what? Are you referring to Legionella as in the family Legionellaceae? > Of which Legionella pneumophila is the commonly accepted cause of > "Legionnaires Disease?" If so, the bacterium you’re referring to is > commonly found in our rivers, lakes, and streams. And *I* thought you were > making copper in water a hysterical issue…
Yes I am and what I said is factual. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Look, the presence of Legionella is hardly worthy of a great deal of > mention. And you are incorrect in your assertion that they prefer hot > water–they do quite well in cold, thank you. While a number of infection > vectors for these critters exist, as a pathogen, they usually have to be > aerosolized and inhaled into the lungs (happens to most of us just about > every day of our lives–such as when you take a shower). And then, in order > to wreak havoc they have to successfully evade the bodies natural > defenses–no small feat! Legionella usually can only find succor in the > lungs of smokers, older people, or those with already compromised health or > immune systems (that’s why it’s so readily found in hospitals–sick folks > seem to congregate there).
I didn’t say they "prefer" anything, they and other bacteria thrive in water heaters. > The simplest control measures are: active and effective chlorination, and > water temps set above 50C (122F). But the two best control measures are > Copper-Silver ionization (Uh, oh! That dreaded "copper" word, again), and > ultraviolet irradiation.
Actually that’s 140f. Yes ionization is an effective biocide. I don’t find any silver in water heaters though. > The downsides are; in order to be effective, the chlorination levels have to > be both high and scrupulously maintained. That can lead to organo-chloro > nasties. The CU-AG ionization is very expensive and usually only found in > hospitals and places like that. UV needs too much attention for the typical > home user.
It’s found in private swiming pool water treatment also and is quite affordable. UV is used any and everywhere bacteria control is needed and that includes residences. > Lp is usually found in close association with highly mineralized > waters–which is usually what comprises the sludge and mineral deposits > found in water systems. Consequently the quartz shell of the UV system > needs to be attended to religiously. It’s good to drain both system tanks > and water heaters on a regular basis.
There are a number of UV lights that have audiable and visual alarms triggered by a loss of intensity from the lamp(s) below a set point that still provides more than minimal dose for many types of bacteria found in ‘potable’ water. IOWs they tell you when to do maintenance. They can shut off the water too if you want them to. Some include mechanical (quartz) wipers that are used without so much as turning off the water or power to the light. Been selling them for years. Also they are effective on giardia etc. which chlorine is not. > One interesting side note; did you know that instances of Legionnaires > Disease, like Tuberculosis, is a mandatory reporting issue? That means that > all instances of such are required to be disclosed and reported to the CDC. > As it turns out; one isn’t even contagious and both are rather easily > controlled with a wide range of antibiotics. AIDS, on the other hand, is > both incurable *and* communicable; yet it’s swathed in secrecy. Go > figure…
Yes I did and I know of cases where the water heater was the source. I take it you don’t, yet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> … > Yes. Any ideas of the effect on health due to the ‘cocktail’ of all > those in various amounts? I don’t but to me it doesn’t matter as long as > Good point. There are mitigating considerations. The short version is that > a mix of minerals is needed–required even. The longer one is that there > are interactions between the various minerals in the body. Too much/little > of one can have an effect on another. For instance, too much copper can > effect the body’s ability to maintain zinc levels. Too little, and the > ability of the body to maintain iron levels is compromised. No easy > answers…
One would be not to drink or cook with hot water from a tank type water heater. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> folks are told not to drink or cook with the water. > That was, is, and continues to be hysterical nonsense! Repeating it shrilly > and often does nothing to make it any more true. It’s no more a valid issue > than the lunacy of "global warming", the knee-jerk gasping at the mention of > those dreaded "green-house gasses", or the tired old cry of, "Oh! No! We > have an ozone hole!" They are nothing more than pop-science and without > merit–as is this irrational fear of a few water borne CU ions or molecules. > As I’d said in an earlier post, it’s better to be more cautious rather than > less. But there’s a time and a place for the application of real fear. And > this ain’t one of ‘em… > … > > enough to get anywhere close to doing any damage. To say otherwise > > seems to me to be fostering unfounded hysteria… > Suit yourself but I compare that type statement to be at best reckless. > The same as statements concerning the decades long ‘no problem’ > responses concerning chlorine disinfection by products, or DDT in the > ‘50 & ’60s. We now know otherwise. > Reckless, is it? I’ll tell ya what’s reckless: > * worrying more about chlorination by-products then the drudgery of dying > from any one of the many certain maladies prevented by chlorination;
Yep that’s the same old argument and it’s valid only as long as we don’t look at the alternatives to chlorine and then support that decision with "it will cost more". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> * worrying about "global warming" when we’re 10,500 years into the 10,000 > year long warm (inter-glacial) period that separates our 90,000 year long > ice-ages without one hand firmly on your wallet (that goes for greenhouse > gasses and the ozone hole nonsense too); > * thinking that DDT is poison–it’s not, while crying over a few dead birds > and not giving so much as a "thank you" for the 10’s of millions of folks > that foiled starvation and didn’t have to die of malaria; > * calling the indoctrination that passes for "teaching", education, while > worrying more about whether a student has enough "self-esteem" and can > access the internet, as opposed to teaching them to read, write, and think; > * calling a stupid little electric car "non-polluting" as long as it > pollutes at a different time in somebody else’s backyard; > …<big sigh!> I could go on. But I digress and apologize for the rant… > … > All I can say is that someone http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/mcl.html > supposedly in the know wants copper in potable water limited to 1.3ppm > Bzzzzzt! Close, but *no* cigar! > If you’ll recheck that site, you’ll find that those suggested limits are > given in MILLIGRAMS per LITER, *not* Parts Per Million. Given that mg/L is > a weight/volume comparison, and the atomic weights of the two materials are > so different, I can’t give you a real value. But, if–just for the sake of > this discussion–we’ll stipulate that their weights are the same, then > 1.3mg/L would become 1,300 Parts Per Million (providing I got math right). > Because of the weight differences, the actual number will be a *bit* > smaller. But to be honest–as I said, I’ve not done the weight conversion > and specific math.
If you’ll check you’ll find that mg/l and ppm is used interchangeably one to one although not exactly accurate. You’re converting to mg/l or ppm to ppB. > … > constantly heating a bunch of stagnant water. Also, most people don’t > have their water tested so a blanket statement to avoid ingesting hot > water seems to be more appropriate than not, but it certainly is not > "unfounded hysteria". > Then I guess that we’ll just have to agree to disagree…(:-)! It’s > misplaced hysteria, pure and simple. While you’re certainly entitled to > your opinion, you aren’t entitled to spread it without challenge as if it > were fact…it ain’t!
I don’t see you proving me wrong, only saying that I am. The URL I put up is to the US EPA which sets MCLs for potable water distributed by water companies and they want 1.3 ppm(mg/l) or less of copper in that water. You can argue with them all you want but my 1+ ppm comment came from there. The action level for copper in potable water is 1.3 ppm. Gary Quality Water Associates – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dusty Bleher > San Jose, Ca.
Response:
Good day all;
… Gary, I noted with some amusement that you didn’t provide any supporting information for your assertion that even 1ppm of CU in water "is dangerous". > water. Each time you use an amount of hot water equal to the contents > of your HWT, any residual copper is going to be halved. > Actually a heater usually does not get fully flushed (or anywhere close) > except when it’s being replaced and the ratio of stagnant water to > ‘fresh’ is the size of the heater to one; 40:1, 50:1 etc.. Taps on the > other hand are constantly being fully flushed, including the feed to the > water heater.
So what! The water is constantly being replaced and mixed. Over time all water will be exchanged. Calling un-used HWT water "stagnant" is a bit like calling milk still in the bottle, un-spilled. … > Bacteria in water heaters is quite common, including Legionella and > thrive in the hot environment. They don’t in the cold lines.
Say what? Are you referring to Legionella as in the family Legionellaceae? Of which Legionella pneumophila is the commonly accepted cause of "Legionnaires Disease?" If so, the bacterium you’re referring to is commonly found in our rivers, lakes, and streams. And *I* thought you were making copper in water a hysterical issue… Look, the presence of Legionella is hardly worthy of a great deal of mention. And you are incorrect in your assertion that they prefer hot water–they do quite well in cold, thank you. While a number of infection vectors for these critters exist, as a pathogen, they usually have to be aerosolized and inhaled into the lungs (happens to most of us just about every day of our lives–such as when you take a shower). And then, in order to wreak havoc they have to successfully evade the bodies natural defenses–no small feat! Legionella usually can only find succor in the lungs of smokers, older people, or those with already compromised health or immune systems (that’s why it’s so readily found in hospitals–sick folks seem to congregate there). The simplest control measures are: active and effective chlorination, and water temps set above 50C (122F). But the two best control measures are Copper-Silver ionization (Uh, oh! That dreaded "copper" word, again), and ultraviolet irradiation. The downsides are; in order to be effective, the chlorination levels have to be both high and scrupulously maintained. That can lead to organo-chloro nasties. The CU-AG ionization is very expensive and usually only found in hospitals and places like that. UV needs too much attention for the typical home user. Lp is usually found in close association with highly mineralized waters–which is usually what comprises the sludge and mineral deposits found in water systems. Consequently the quartz shell of the UV system needs to be attended to religiously. It’s good to drain both system tanks and water heaters on a regular basis. One interesting side note; did you know that instances of Legionnaires Disease, like Tuberculosis, is a mandatory reporting issue? That means that all instances of such are required to be disclosed and reported to the CDC. As it turns out; one isn’t even contagious and both are rather easily controlled with a wide range of antibiotics. AIDS, on the other hand, is both incurable *and* communicable; yet it’s swathed in secrecy. Go figure… … > Yes. Any ideas of the effect on health due to the ‘cocktail’ of all > those in various amounts? I don’t but to me it doesn’t matter as long as
Good point. There are mitigating considerations. The short version is that a mix of minerals is needed–required even. The longer one is that there are interactions between the various minerals in the body. Too much/little of one can have an effect on another. For instance, too much copper can effect the body’s ability to maintain zinc levels. Too little, and the ability of the body to maintain iron levels is compromised. No easy answers… > folks are told not to drink or cook with the water.
That was, is, and continues to be hysterical nonsense! Repeating it shrilly and often does nothing to make it any more true. It’s no more a valid issue than the lunacy of "global warming", the knee-jerk gasping at the mention of those dreaded "green-house gasses", or the tired old cry of, "Oh! No! We have an ozone hole!" They are nothing more than pop-science and without merit–as is this irrational fear of a few water borne CU ions or molecules. As I’d said in an earlier post, it’s better to be more cautious rather than less. But there’s a time and a place for the application of real fear. And this ain’t one of ‘em… … > enough to get anywhere close to doing any damage. To say otherwise > seems to me to be fostering unfounded hysteria… > Suit yourself but I compare that type statement to be at best reckless. > The same as statements concerning the decades long ‘no problem’ > responses concerning chlorine disinfection by products, or DDT in the > ‘50 & ’60s. We now know otherwise.
Reckless, is it? I’ll tell ya what’s reckless: * worrying more about chlorination by-products then the drudgery of dying from any one of the many certain maladies prevented by chlorination; * worrying about "global warming" when we’re 10,500 years into the 10,000 year long warm (inter-glacial) period that separates our 90,000 year long ice-ages without one hand firmly on your wallet (that goes for greenhouse gasses and the ozone hole nonsense too); * thinking that DDT is poison–it’s not, while crying over a few dead birds and not giving so much as a "thank you" for the 10’s of millions of folks that foiled starvation and didn’t have to die of malaria; * calling the indoctrination that passes for "teaching", education, while worrying more about whether a student has enough "self-esteem" and can access the internet, as opposed to teaching them to read, write, and think; * calling a stupid little electric car "non-polluting" as long as it pollutes at a different time in somebody else’s backyard; …<big sigh!> I could go on. But I digress and apologize for the rant… … > All I can say is that someone http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/mcl.html > supposedly in the know wants copper in potable water limited to 1.3ppm
Bzzzzzt! Close, but *no* cigar! If you’ll recheck that site, you’ll find that those suggested limits are given in MILLIGRAMS per LITER, *not* Parts Per Million. Given that mg/L is a weight/volume comparison, and the atomic weights of the two materials are so different, I can’t give you a real value. But, if–just for the sake of this discussion–we’ll stipulate that their weights are the same, then 1.3mg/L would become 1,300 Parts Per Million (providing I got math right). Because of the weight differences, the actual number will be a *bit* smaller. But to be honest–as I said, I’ve not done the weight conversion and specific math. … > constantly heating a bunch of stagnant water. Also, most people don’t > have their water tested so a blanket statement to avoid ingesting hot > water seems to be more appropriate than not, but it certainly is not > "unfounded hysteria".
Then I guess that we’ll just have to agree to disagree…(:-)! It’s misplaced hysteria, pure and simple. While you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, you aren’t entitled to spread it without challenge as if it were fact…it ain’t! Dusty Bleher San Jose, Ca.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good day Gary and all; > … > > air, the change can’t be all that much. What could they possibly be > > besides a few decomposing organics? > All waters have a variable amount of dissolved oxygen except the worse > well water. Predomenetly metals are the problem, those te hwater system > is made of and then the water heater. > Yes. True enough. Still, the amount of dissolved oxygen is relatively > small. Too small to have any real measurable effect considering the > relatively low temperature to which it is heated. Keep in mind that the > cold water has just as much dissolved oxygen… > … > > I’d say that those few degrees aren’t going to amount to a significant > > increase in metallurgical activity–if at all. > Copper as an example is harmful at 1.0+ ppMillion. Your taps are fully > I don’t know that I can go along with that. To be honest, I haven’t > recently done the math, but my ever errant Mark IV eyeball sez that number > is probably a bit off. Perhaps you’d be so kind as to provide some support > for that stipulation. > Based on USDA surveys, human copper intake in the United States averages 1.2 > mg/day for all individuals–somewhat below the 1.5 mg suggested minimum. > Like I said, I didn’t do the math, but I’d submit that this is a far greater > amount than the "harmful" level of 1+ ppm you’d suggested. > To be fair, because of the uncertainty of quantitive human requirements, the > USDA isn’t able to define or establish an RDA. If memory serves, the daily > recommendation is that 1.5 milligrams to 3.0 milligrams per day is both safe > and an adequate range of dietary copper intake for adults. > As it is, copper–bound as an antioxidant–is an important and necessary > component of the body’s defenses. The enzyme superoxide dismutase (SOD) is > necessary for several fairly important functions. In particular, it aids > the binding of iron in the blood’s hemoglobin. In addition, copper is > essential for the proper utilization of vitamin C, and apparently stops > degeneration of the nervous system (note to self: start sucking on that > water heater!). > The best natural sources are shell fish, sea vegetables, nuts, seeds, beans > and peas. In addition, it is found abundantly in tap water because of > "contamination" from copper pipes. Drinking water *can* contribute as much > as 0.8 mg per day if it comes through copper pipes. Soft water and acid > water contribute the largest amount [Sparrow, et al]. Spirulina seaweed is > a very good source of copper. It contains about six milligrams per 100 > grams. > Toxicity from dietary sources is extremely rare, but supplementation should > be avoided as an excess can lower zinc levels, produce insomnia, hair loss > and depression. > flushed, water heaters are not. At best the water in the tank is diluted > but unless you do maintenance including draining the heater, and you > won’t get everything out then, there’s only dilution occuring when you > use hot water. Dilution as opposed to fully flushing says the "time" is > forever. > Nah! I can’t go along with that. Sure, taps will get regularly purged. > But the amount of additional copper in the hot water side isn’t going to be > significantly higher–if at all. It’s true that the HWT doesn’t get > completely purged each time it’s used, but if you do the math, it isn’t > going to take very long and you’re not going to be able to measure the > difference between what came out of the hot water as opposed to the cold > water. Each time you use an amount of hot water equal to the contents of > your HWT, any residual copper is going to be halved.
Actually a heater usually does not get fully flushed (or anywhere close) except when it’s being replaced and the ratio of stagnant water to ‘fresh’ is the size of the heater to one; 40:1, 50:1 etc.. Taps on the other hand are constantly being fully flushed, including the feed to the water heater. > Remember, there wasn’t much to begin with, and the rather modest amount of > heat available in a HWT isn’t going to add significantly to the burden. And > pretty soon you won’t be able to measure the difference.
Bacteria in water heaters is quite common, including Legionella and thrive in the hot environment. They don’t in the cold lines. > Also, the real danger is from the heavy metals: arsenic, lead, cadmium, and > so on… Copper, magnesium, and zinc aren’t all that toxic…unless of > course you were to fashion them into a 9mm 55 grain pellet and accelerate it > with explosives…(:-)!
Yes. Any ideas of the effect on health due to the ‘cocktail’ of all those in various amounts? I don’t but to me it doesn’t matter as long as folks are told not to drink or cook with the water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> … > That’s a very good idea and and as long as you don’t and don’t use it > for cooking it’s immaterial why you don’t, you still benefit from the > habit. Good water has no taste. That’s due to it not containing anything > to depart a taste to it good or bad. > Look, we basically agree–humans shouldn’t over-do metal ingestion. Most > metals, in other than necessary trace amounts, can do bad things to your > body. But I’ll submit that you won’t suffer any such damage from drinking > normal tap water from the hot tap. You simply can’t drink enough water long > enough to get anywhere close to doing any damage. To say otherwise seems to > me to be fostering unfounded hysteria…
Suit yourself but I compare that type statement to be at best reckless. The same as statements concerning the decades long ‘no problem’ responses concerning chlorine disinfection by products, or DDT in the ‘50 & ’60s. We now know otherwise. > Dusty Bleher > Precision Measurement Instrumentation Design > San Jose, Ca. > [NB: some of the preceeding material was shamelessly lifted from USDA and > related sources...]
All I can say is that someone http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/mcl.html supposedly in the know wants copper in potable water limited to 1.3 ppm (action level) and they don’t care what volume of water is used. Copper was an example, the other things you mention are also in the mix and seem to support my comment that water from a water heater shouldn’t be drank or used for cooking, but to each their own. Those other parameters are not normally found in cold water. Wonder why if it’s not from constantly heating a bunch of stagnant water. Also, most people don’t have their water tested so a blanket statement to avoid ingesting hot water seems to be more appropriate than not, but it certainly is not "unfounded hysteria". Gary Quality Water Associates – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gary > Quality Water Associates
Response:
Good day Gary and all;
… > air, the change can’t be all that much. What could they possibly be > besides a few decomposing organics? > All waters have a variable amount of dissolved oxygen except the worse > well water. Predomenetly metals are the problem, those te hwater system > is made of and then the water heater.
Yes. True enough. Still, the amount of dissolved oxygen is relatively small. Too small to have any real measurable effect considering the relatively low temperature to which it is heated. Keep in mind that the cold water has just as much dissolved oxygen… … > I’d say that those few degrees aren’t going to amount to a significant > increase in metallurgical activity–if at all. > Copper as an example is harmful at 1.0+ ppMillion. Your taps are fully
I don’t know that I can go along with that. To be honest, I haven’t recently done the math, but my ever errant Mark IV eyeball sez that number is probably a bit off. Perhaps you’d be so kind as to provide some support for that stipulation. Based on USDA surveys, human copper intake in the United States averages 1.2 mg/day for all individuals–somewhat below the 1.5 mg suggested minimum. Like I said, I didn’t do the math, but I’d submit that this is a far greater amount than the "harmful" level of 1+ ppm you’d suggested. To be fair, because of the uncertainty of quantitive human requirements, the USDA isn’t able to define or establish an RDA. If memory serves, the daily recommendation is that 1.5 milligrams to 3.0 milligrams per day is both safe and an adequate range of dietary copper intake for adults. As it is, copper–bound as an antioxidant–is an important and necessary component of the body’s defenses. The enzyme superoxide dismutase (SOD) is necessary for several fairly important functions. In particular, it aids the binding of iron in the blood’s hemoglobin. In addition, copper is essential for the proper utilization of vitamin C, and apparently stops degeneration of the nervous system (note to self: start sucking on that water heater!). The best natural sources are shell fish, sea vegetables, nuts, seeds, beans and peas. In addition, it is found abundantly in tap water because of "contamination" from copper pipes. Drinking water *can* contribute as much as 0.8 mg per day if it comes through copper pipes. Soft water and acid water contribute the largest amount [Sparrow, et al]. Spirulina seaweed is a very good source of copper. It contains about six milligrams per 100 grams. Toxicity from dietary sources is extremely rare, but supplementation should be avoided as an excess can lower zinc levels, produce insomnia, hair loss and depression. > flushed, water heaters are not. At best the water in the tank is diluted > but unless you do maintenance including draining the heater, and you > won’t get everything out then, there’s only dilution occuring when you > use hot water. Dilution as opposed to fully flushing says the "time" is > forever.
Nah! I can’t go along with that. Sure, taps will get regularly purged. But the amount of additional copper in the hot water side isn’t going to be significantly higher–if at all. It’s true that the HWT doesn’t get completely purged each time it’s used, but if you do the math, it isn’t going to take very long and you’re not going to be able to measure the difference between what came out of the hot water as opposed to the cold water. Each time you use an amount of hot water equal to the contents of your HWT, any residual copper is going to be halved. Remember, there wasn’t much to begin with, and the rather modest amount of heat available in a HWT isn’t going to add significantly to the burden. And pretty soon you won’t be able to measure the difference. Also, the real danger is from the heavy metals: arsenic, lead, cadmium, and so on… Copper, magnesium, and zinc aren’t all that toxic…unless of course you were to fashion them into a 9mm 55 grain pellet and accelerate it with explosives…(:-)! … > That’s a very good idea and and as long as you don’t and don’t use it > for cooking it’s immaterial why you don’t, you still benefit from the > habit. Good water has no taste. That’s due to it not containing anything > to depart a taste to it good or bad.
Look, we basically agree–humans shouldn’t over-do metal ingestion. Most metals, in other than necessary trace amounts, can do bad things to your body. But I’ll submit that you won’t suffer any such damage from drinking normal tap water from the hot tap. You simply can’t drink enough water long enough to get anywhere close to doing any damage. To say otherwise seems to me to be fostering unfounded hysteria… Dusty Bleher Precision Measurement Instrumentation Design San Jose, Ca. [NB: some of the preceeding material was shamelessly lifted from USDA and related sources...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gary > Quality Water Associates
Response:
We have well water and a long run from the water heater in the basement to the furthest bath on the second. I have read of a system to recirculate the cold water at the top of the hot water supply back until it gets hot. What is such a thing called? TIA —
Response:
>We have well water and a long run from the water heater in the >basement to the furthest bath on the second. I have read of a system >to recirculate the cold water at the top of the hot water supply back >until it gets hot. What is such a thing called? >TIA —
Check out Laing Autocirc at Lowes approximately $200, you can get more information about it and how it works on the web by doing a Goggle search using the key word "Laing Autocirc" , or by clicking on the following URL: http://www.lainginc.com/act303.htm
Response:
Hmm…. Of course this system forces the recirculated water back through the cold water pipe. A lousy solution, IMHO. Do it right and either install a point-of-use heater, or run a separate return pipe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We have well water and a long run from the water heater in the >basement to the furthest bath on the second. I have read of a system >to recirculate the cold water at the top of the hot water supply back >until it gets hot. What is such a thing called? >TIA — > Check out Laing Autocirc at Lowes approximately $200, you can get > more information about it and how it works on the web by doing a > Goggle search using the key word "Laing Autocirc" , or by clicking on > the following URL: > http://www.lainginc.com/act303.htm
Response:
>Of course this system forces the recirculated water back through the >cold water pipe.
The pipe doesn’t mind at all. -v.
Response:
A small, 5-6 gallon electric heater close to the far bath will do the job. Feed it with the hot water line, and it will provide enough initial hot water. Using the cold water line as a bypass, a mechanical pump and all the other things needed are a maintenance headache. You wont get any cold water at the sink with such a system. Try swallowing some pills using hot water from the cold water line. Rick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have well water and a long run from the water heater in the > basement to the furthest bath on the second. I have read of a system > to recirculate the cold water at the top of the hot water supply back > until it gets hot. What is such a thing called? > TIA —
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> We have well water and a long run from the water heater in the > basement to the furthest bath on the second. I have read of a system > to recirculate the cold water at the top of the hot water supply back > until it gets hot. What is such a thing called? > TIA —
The water at the top of a water heater is the hottest water in the tank. The cold is on the bottom, as it is supposed to be and would classify itself anyway; heat rises cold sinks. It’s called a recirculation system. Many folks have had leakage problems with recirc systems when used with copper tubing. It depends on your water quality. Gary Quality Water Associates
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The issues are: 1). your cold water is now quite warm (until you flush out the entire length of the pipe, by running the cold water for a while… 2). Water drawn from a hot water heater may have (granted often only slightly) higher levels of rather unpleasant metals: http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/ag473_1.html (For the same reason as it is not recommended to use the hot water for cooking) This water is forced into the cold water lines. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Of course this system forces the recirculated water back through the >cold water pipe. > The pipe doesn’t mind at all. > -v.
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I’ve been following this discussion with some interest–as I have one of these systems (at least, if I understand the description correctly…); and intend to put one into our next home too. I added a "return line" and a small fractional HP circulation pump of the kind used for solar hot water systems. The pump runs off of an output from the system timer. It’s turned on in the early AM, and ensures that we have hot water in the lines for our morning showers and so on… The "return line" goes back to the hot water tank input, where it gets [re]heated in the normal manner. I have no idea how or why this constant, "You’ll have hot water in your cold water lines…", and all the ensuing nonsense about metals and such has any bearing on the issue. The hot water circulates in the hot water system, and the cold circuit hasn’t changed a bit. Or am I missing the point? Dusty Bleher San Jose, Ca.
> The issues are: > 1). your cold water is now quite warm (until you flush out the entire > length of the pipe, by running the cold water for a while… > 2). Water drawn from a hot water heater may have (granted often only > slightly) higher levels of rather unpleasant metals: > http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/ag473_1.html > (For the same reason as it is not recommended to use the hot water for > cooking) > This water is forced into the cold water lines.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Of course this system forces the recirculated water back through the > >cold water pipe. > The pipe doesn’t mind at all. > -v.
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… > Most systems of this nature use the cold line as the return line, not > a separate dedicated line as you have. Thus, you end up with "warm" > cold water for a bit if the recirc pump has been running.
Ah, ha! Now that hadn’t occurred to me. Now I see what the fuss was about. I guess that since I wouldn’t have done it like that, it never occurred to me that others would and then would have the ensuing issues. Thanks for the clarification! Great group. Good info…(as soon as you get this idjit up-to-speed…). Dusty Bleher San Jose, Ca. …
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve been following this discussion with some interest–as I have one of > these systems (at least, if I understand the description correctly…); and > intend to put one into our next home too. > I added a "return line" and a small fractional HP circulation pump of the > kind used for solar hot water systems. The pump runs off of an output from > the system timer. It’s turned on in the early AM, and ensures that we have > hot water in the lines for our morning showers and so on… The "return > line" goes back to the hot water tank input, where it gets [re]heated in the > normal manner. > I have no idea how or why this constant, "You’ll have hot water in your cold > water lines…", and all the ensuing nonsense about metals and such has any > bearing on the issue. The hot water circulates in the hot water system, and > the cold circuit hasn’t changed a bit. Or am I missing the point? > Dusty Bleher > San Jose, Ca.
When water is heated and stored in 40+ gallon tanks the water chemistry changes substantially from the ‘fresh cool water’ is once was. You should not be ingesting hot water or hot water that has cooled. Hot water plumbing usually adds some of the metals it’s made of to the heated water. Some can be harmful at very low levels. Gary Quality Water Associates > The issues are: > 1). your cold water is now quite warm (until you flush out the entire > length of the pipe, by running the cold water for a while… > 2). Water drawn from a hot water heater may have (granted often only > slightly) higher levels of rather unpleasant metals:
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/ag473_1.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (For the same reason as it is not recommended to use the hot water for > cooking) > This water is forced into the cold water lines. > > >Of course this system forces the recirculated water back through the > > >cold water pipe. > > The pipe doesn’t mind at all. > > -v.
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… > When water is heated and stored in 40+ gallon tanks the water chemistry > changes substantially from the ‘fresh cool water’ is once was. You
"Substantially?" I’d think that in the absence of significant exposure to air, the change can’t be all that much. What could they possibly be besides a few decomposing organics? > should not be ingesting hot water or hot water that has cooled. Hot > water plumbing usually adds some of the metals it’s made of to the > heated water. Some can be harmful at very low levels.
Yes. True enough. But to put that into some semblance of perspective, you’d have to add that the amounts are extremely minute. At most a few parts per billion, and well within the typical variation that you’d experience over time from your tap anyway. Besides that, I’d suspect that any increased non-aqueous materials are probably more the result of the surface area and time in contact then of any active reaction with heated metallic surfaces. What’s a typical ‘delta T’ of tap water, 60-70F or so? I’d say that those few degrees aren’t going to amount to a significant increase in metallurgical activity–if at all. I agree that you’d probably want to avoid drinking it, I do–and most folks typically do so too. But I’d base that more on that it doesn’t taste as good or "refresh" as a well as a glass of ‘fresh cool water’. Other than that, I’d lose exactly zero microseconds of sleep over it… Dusty Bleher San Jose, Ca. …
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> … > When water is heated and stored in 40+ gallon tanks the water chemistry > changes substantially from the ‘fresh cool water’ is once was. You > "Substantially?" I’d think that in the absence of significant exposure to > air, the change can’t be all that much. What could they possibly be besides > a few decomposing organics?
All waters have a variable amount of dissolved oxygen except the worse well water. Predomenetly metals are the problem, those te hwater system is made of and then the water heater. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> should not be ingesting hot water or hot water that has cooled. Hot > water plumbing usually adds some of the metals it’s made of to the > heated water. Some can be harmful at very low levels. > Yes. True enough. But to put that into some semblance of perspective, > you’d have to add that the amounts are extremely minute. At most a few > parts per billion, and well within the typical variation that you’d > experience over time from your tap anyway. Besides that, I’d suspect that > any increased non-aqueous materials are probably more the result of the > surface area and time in contact then of any active reaction with heated > metallic surfaces. What’s a typical ‘delta T’ of tap water, 60-70F or so? > I’d say that those few degrees aren’t going to amount to a significant > increase in metallurgical activity–if at all.
Copper as an example is harmful at 1.0+ ppMillion. Your taps are fully flushed, water heaters are not. At best the water in the tank is diluted but unless you do maintenance including draining the heater, and you won’t get everything out then, there’s only dilution occuring when you use hot water. Dilution as opposed to fully flushing says the "time" is forever. . > I agree that you’d probably want to avoid drinking it, I do–and most folks > typically do so too. But I’d base that more on that it doesn’t taste as > good or "refresh" as a well as a glass of ‘fresh cool water’. Other than > that, I’d lose exactly zero microseconds of sleep over it…
That’s a very good idea and and as long as you don’t and don’t use it for cooking it’s immaterial why you don’t, you still benefit from the habit. Good water has no taste. That’s due to it not containing anything to depart a taste to it good or bad. Gary Quality Water Associates – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dusty Bleher > San Jose, Ca.
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